Send them to rot in gaol!

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Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Bampots on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:04 am

Is it just me or is the sentence thrown at this teenager/child barbaric! I understand he may be a danger but surely he is also a victim of online grooming albeit they groom him for jihad. I think this is a sorry reflection of this government......life imprisonment at 15! My we have to grow up quick.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34423984


A court sketch of the sentencing hearing of a 15-year-old boy for terror offencesImage copyrightJulia Quenzler
A 15-year-old British boy who plotted to behead police officers at an Anzac Day parade in Australia has been sentenced to life imprisonment.
The Blackburn teenager will serve at least five years for inciting terrorism and will only be released once he is no longer considered to be dangerous.
He sent thousands of online messages to an alleged Australian jihadist and was planning "a massacre", the court heard.
He is believed to be the youngest Briton guilty of a terror offence.
Police said the plan hatched by the boy - who was aged 14 at the time and will remain anonymous due to his age - was "shocking in its brutality and scope".
The boy remains a "significant risk", the judge, Mr Justice Saunders, said.
Dominic Casciani, BBC home affairs correspondent, said the five-year minimum term was a "window of opportunity" to see if the boy can be deradicalised before he is then moved into the adult prison system.
But our correspondent said he may potentially never leave custody.
The race to stop the teenage terrorist
Police found a wooden box labelled Image copyrightGreater Manchester Police
Image caption
Police found a wooden box labelled "Islamic State" in the boy's bedroom
By BBC's Rachael Connors
The teenager - now Britain's youngest convicted terrorist - comes from a "normal" family in Blackburn, Lancashire; he had a "typical relationship" with his mother who would drive him to any appointments.
But the picture that emerged when police searched his bedroom was far from normal. On the windowsill they found a wooden box labelled Islamic State in the way a teenager might carve out the name of a pop idol.
But it was what detectives found within encrypted messages that revealed Australia was just days away from experiencing a violent terrorist attack orchestrated by the schoolboy.
Read more: How did a teenager from a "normal" family become Britain's youngest convicted terrorist?
The court heard how the boy adopted an older persona in his messages to alleged Australian jihadist Sevdet Besim, 18, in which he instructed him to carry out an Islamic State terror group inspired attack.
They had been put in touch by a well-known Islamic State recruiter, Abu Khaled al-Cambodi - also an Australian.
The plot, hatched from the bedroom of the Lancashire teenager's suburban home earlier this year, was for Mr Besim to run over at least one police officer and then behead them with a knife at the remembrance parade in Melbourne, Manchester Crown Court heard.
Anzac Day, held on 25 April each year, commemorates Australian and New Zealand personnel killed in conflicts - and this year marked the centenary of the World War One battle in Gallipoli.
In one exchange of messages, the teenager suggested Mr Besim get his "first taste of beheading" by attacking "a proper lonely person".

Media caption
In a statement following sentencing, a solicitor said the family of the Blackburn boy had been 'completely unaware' of his activities before his arrest
The pair would "in all probability" have succeeded had British police not accessed material on the boy's phone and alerted Australian police, the court had heard.
The boy later told his psychiatrist it would be a "massacre".
Mr Besim is awaiting trial in Australia next year.
Wearing glasses and grey trousers and shirt, the boy sat impassively as his sentence was read out, before hugging his tearful parents and family members in turn, and being led away.
Sentencing the teenager, judge Mr Justice Saunders said the youth would have "welcomed the notoriety" had the plot succeeded.
Sevdet Besim
Image caption
The boy sent thousands of messages to Sevdet Besim in Australia
When Australian police raided Mr Besim's house, they allegedly found a knife and a phone containing a martyrdom messageImage copyrightGreater Manchester Police
Image caption
When Australian police raided Mr Besim's house, they allegedly found a knife and a phone containing a martyrdom message
He said it was "chilling" that someone who was only 14 years old at the time could have become "so radicalised that he was prepared to carry out this role intending and wishing that people should die".
He had been "immersed" in online extremist material and "groomed" by adult extremists who then started using him to carry out their wishes, the judge said.
Speaking outside court the boy's solicitor, Daniel King, said the family were "shocked and devastated" when he was arrested, as they had no idea about his intentions and were relieved that no one had been harmed.
'Jihadi celebrity'
The court previously heard the teenager had been referred to the authorities by his school on several occasions for threatening behaviour, including telling one teacher he would "cut his throat and watch him bleed to death". He had also cited Osama Bin Laden as his hero.
The youth had found an online jihadist community through his first smartphone which "filled a void" caused by problems he was having at school and at home as well as a degenerative eye condition.
Text message exchangeImage copyrightGreater Manchester Police
Image caption
The boy and his Australian conspirator exchanged thousands of messages
Within two weeks of setting up a Twitter account he had 24,000 followers as he constructed a fantasy image of himself and "quickly became a celebrity" within the jihadi Twitter community.
He was referred to the government's de-radicalisation initiative Channel, but only paid "lip service" to attempts to reform him, Mr Justice Saunders said.
He said "no doubt lessons can and have been learnt" about how his case might have been handled.
But he stressed the blame lay entirely with "those extremists who were prepared to use the internet to encourage extreme views in a boy of 14 and then use him to carry out terrorist acts".
Army cadets taking part in Anzac Day parade in Sydney, Australia, on 25 April 2015Image copyrightAP
Image caption
Parades, like this year's event in Sydney, take place across Australia on Anzac Day
Detective Chief Superintendent Tony Mole, from the north west counter terrorism unit, said the boy had been known to police but had resisted intervention.
"That's a dangerous game to play because you can get people like us knocking on the door and investigating you, which is not the place we want to be dealing with 14-year-old people," he said.
Labour MP Keith Vaz, chairman of Parliament's Home Affairs Select Committee, said members would "look closely" at the case.
"It is concerning that he has been part of programmes for de-radicalisation which have clearly not worked," Mr Vaz said.
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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Mimi on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:16 am

Sorry to disagree but I was pleased to hear he got life Bampots.

All of them have been `groomed`, `indoctrinated` or whatever you wish to call it, but they are still extremely dangerous whatever their age. He has remained firm in his beliefs even though he`s gone through a de-radicalisation programme. I think he`s more dangerous now at his young age than he might be in 10-20 years time. Maybe he will change in time.

I find it hard to believe his parents did not know.

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Bampots on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:29 am

The support for kids of his age are non existent. Take a look at (he started at 14 I think?) a 15 year old kid. Is jail for life really all we can come up with. I know where your coming from Mimi I just think that this boy has been groomed and led to this terrible place. I agree he poses a threat .....life in prison really.....no one has died as a result of any of his actions regardless of his intent! (This is the Libran coming out!). We must have an alternative to this!?

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:33 am

Bampots wrote:The support for kids of his age are non existent. Take a look at (he started at 14 I think?) a 15 year old kid. Is jail for life really all we can come up with. I know where your coming from Mimi I just think that this boy has been groomed and led to this terrible place. I agree he poses a threat .....life in prison really.....no one has died as a result of any of his actions regardless of his intent! (This is the Libran coming out!). We must have an alternative to this!?
The problem is this will not be an isolated case. There will be thousands of young men and boys being groomed as we speak. OK so no one died.....yet. What needs to be done is a flushing out of those doing the grooming. Intelligence these days is capable of finding the perps.
I feel the liberal stance on this would change somewhat if one of those young men were to actually carry out his threat.
Prison perhaps is not the solution and could even exacerbate the problem, but until a better solution can be found, what else is there? 
Do you take these boys and make them face their victims, show them pictures of the bodies of bomb victims? Would it make a difference? 
You cannot fight an enemy that is not afraid to die. Sadly death is a badge of honour offered to those who bring death to "infidels"

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Bampots on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:09 am

......you take these boys and make them face their victims, show them pictures of the bodies of bomb victims? Would it make a d....

But that's the point there is no victims. When the bodies lie there,yes ,then throw the book. We create a bigger monster,we act in the way they expect and in a similar manner(brutal and vengeful). If (big if) we are going to deal with this issue we should show restraint and understanding particularly with the young. I don't suggest we let them walk the street. What's the alternative? War on Islam?

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:58 am

Bampots wrote:......you take these boys and make them face their victims, show them pictures of the bodies of bomb victims? Would it make a d....

But that's the point there is no victims. When the bodies lie there,yes ,then throw the book. We create a bigger monster,we act in the way they expect and in a similar manner(brutal and vengeful). If (big if) we are going to deal with this issue we should show restraint and understanding particularly with the young. I don't suggest we let them walk the street. What's the alternative? War on Islam?
Sorry Bampots. Every day there are victims of those who have been radicalised. Maybe not this particular boy, but those who have been indoctrinated to see the west as the enemy, the infidel pigs who must be eradicated at all costs, were once innocent children until someone manipulated and twisted their minds.
As I said until we can stop those who are corrupting the world's youth, we must do what we can to protect innocent people from being blown up whilst awaiting the train to work, or dancing in a nightclub.
Go soft on terrorism, pay the price.

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Hellsbells on Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:10 am

it's a tricky one, I always felt the Bulger case threw up a similar issue. Horrific yes, and considerable corrective treatment required but why should the judicial system treat 10 and 11 year olds as if they were adults?
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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:25 am

Hellsbells wrote:it's a tricky one, I always felt the Bulger case threw up a similar issue. Horrific yes, and considerable corrective treatment required but why should the judicial system treat 10 and 11 year olds as if they were adults?
Why would 10 and 11 year olds commit such an atrocious act on a child? I don't know the background of Venables and Thomson but I would imagine they didn't have the benefit of decent parenting. 
We are largely the product of our upbringing. Some choose to repeat history, some see the past as a lesson in how not to behave. 
From when they are in the cradle we need to be a better example to our children.

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Freedom on Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:34 am

I have read a lot about the background of James Bulger's killers.

Venables had two parents who, though separated, both cared about him and his home was adequate. Thompson's single parent mother was an alcoholic and he was left to run amok with six brothers but there are plenty of other children whose home lives are a darn sight worse yet they don't commit dreadful atrocities.

So I don't think that home lives - speaking generally and to include other killers - are to blame.


Last edited by Freedom on Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo corrected.)

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:48 am

That's why I said some choose to repeat history and some don't. I also clarified that I didn't know those boys background. However, and speaking in hypothetical cases, if a child grows up in an environment where say a father has a history of violent acts, is frequently in jail but continues to berate the police, the justice system and any other authority he feels has done him wrong, a child MAY grow up to be unable to respect that authority.
If a child is allowed to run wild with no control over his or her actions, where a parent congratulates that bad behaviour, then background can have an influence.
Therefore if we go soft on discipline, someone pays the price if that child grows up blaming the rest of the world for his/ her problems.
You also have to take into consideration that there are a large number of people who are clearly sociopathic and they will never be able to empathise with their fellow man.
So I am not saying it is always the case that bad upbringing means future bad behaviour, I do think it can influence some.

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Mimi on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:28 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:
Freedom wrote:I have read a lot about the background of James Bulger's killers.

Venables had two parents who, though separated, both cared about him and his home was adequate. Thompson's single parent mother was an alcoholic and he was left to run amok with six brothers but there are plenty of other children whose home lives are a darn sight worse yet they don't commit dreadful atrocities.

So I don't think that home lives - speaking generally and to include other killers - are to blame.
That's why I said some choose to repeat history and some don't. I also clarified that I didn't know those boys background. However, and speaking in hypothetical cases, if a child grows up in an environment where say a father has a history of violent acts, is frequently in jail but continues to berate the police, the justice system and any other authority he feels has done him wrong, a child MAY grow up to be unable to respect that authority.
If a child is allowed to run wild with no control over his or her actions, where a parent congratulates that bad behaviour, then background can have an influence.
Therefore if we go soft on discipline, someone pays the price if that child grows up blaming the rest of the world for his/ her problems.
You also have to take into consideration that there are a large number of people who are clearly sociopathic and they will never be able to empathise with their fellow man.
So I am not saying it is always the case that bad upbringing means future bad behaviour, I do think it can influence some.

IMO that is the reason such youngsters will never change.

Bampots, you are saying in effect that it`s not his fault because of his young age and therefore easy to influence. But I`m saying that many other youngsters would have immediately rejected the ideals of these terrorists because they know killing is wrong - there has to be something in the mind of a youngster initially for him to be so easily lured - and that is some sort of sociopathy or psychopathy.

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Bampots on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:36 pm

a vulnerable youngster....we arrest people who groom sexually 15 or 16 year olds on the internet(ask jim gamble) so why not those who seek to corrupt this child.
you don't have to be soft to show compassion and this lad has been used and groomed for more evil deeds

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Re: Send them to rot in gaol!

Post  Mimi on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:58 pm

Bampots wrote:a vulnerable youngster....we arrest people who groom sexually 15 or 16 year olds on the internet(ask jim gamble) so why not those who seek to corrupt this child.
you don't have to be soft to show compassion and this lad has been used and groomed for more evil deeds

I think there is a difference Bampots.  There isn`t evil in the victims of sex predators, but IMO, the evil is already there in the victims of terrorist predators or they would have rejected the lure.  It is already there in the teenager`s psychological make-up.  And IMO he would have taken some sort of violent route in life whomever the original tempter was.

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