Capabilities of the Dogs

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:03 pm

Link upthread when I quoted it earlier, but here it is again:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

About the 9th paragraph down.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:10 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:I think your right Seahorse, so in the parents bedroom, there was an alert to cadaver only as Keela did not alert in that room.

As well as on cuddle cat and the flowerbed.


Haven't looked into the clothes yet.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:19 pm

seahorse wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:I think your right Seahorse, so in the parents bedroom, there was an alert to cadaver only as Keela did not alert in that room.

As well as on cuddle cat and the flowerbed.


Haven't looked into the clothes yet.

Forgot that too, it's been awhile since I've looked at that part, time for a refresher I think Wink

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:26 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:
seahorse wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:I think your right Seahorse, so in the parents bedroom, there was an alert to cadaver only as Keela did not alert in that room.

As well as on cuddle cat and the flowerbed.


Haven't looked into the clothes yet.

Forgot that too, it's been awhile since I've looked at that part, time for a refresher I think Wink

"2 - 11.30pm: An initial inspection by the human blood detecting dog, began with the clothing packed in the box bearing the notation: "Living room." At 11.40pm, the inspection was completed without the dog showing anything abnormal.

11.41: The canine human remains recovery dog started its inspection and "marked" various clothes. The inspection was completed at 11.52pm. The clothes were returned to their box for later use. "

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

Cadaver scent on various clothes as well!

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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:34 pm

seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:
seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grime said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'



So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts. This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.



Do you have a link for Martin Grime's statement.Eddie alerted to cadaver scent and then Keela was used (the next day I believe) and she detected blood. Surely blood plus the
detection of cadaver odour results in a body having been there. I don't believe Martin
Grime would compromise his well trained dogs in any way. But I would like to see the link.

Link upthread when I quoted it earlier, but here it is again:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

About the 9th paragraph down.

This is the only piece of information I am interested in. The dogs do not get confused.
They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.Taken from the link.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:37 pm

Eddie barks in alert to cadaver scent or dried blood (never fresh blood) and Keela freezes in alert to fresh or dried blood.

But Eddie won't distinguish between cadaver scent or dried blood, unless I've misunderstood and I'm sure you can point me to the right information.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:44 pm

Eddie does distinguish from the way I read it, he barks at cadaver odour, he does  not bark for blood. (He was originally trained as a blood dog, but that means he froze for blood).  I remember reading all this ages ago in  an article about Mr Grime and he said that Eddie then went on to train as a cadaver dog, which meant that he gave a different alert - barking.    That's why there are two different alerts (again as I read it) so that the handler knows which it is.

Doh, my head is spinning, getting totally confused Laughing

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 9:03 pm

candyfloss wrote:Eddie does distinguish from the way I read it, he barks at cadaver odour, he does  not bark for blood. (He was originally trained as a blood dog, but that means he froze for blood).  I remember reading all this ages ago in  an article about Mr Grime and he said that Eddie then went on to train as a cadaver dog, which meant that he gave a different alert - barking.    That's why there are two different alerts (again as I read it) so that the handler knows which it is.

Doh, my head is spinning, getting totally confused Laughing

I know. Now I remember why I never read up on it and just took as gospel what others said.

If you can find the article that'd be great because it is very important. If he makes different signals for either blood or cadaver scent then we know for sure if it was cadaver odour in the boot of the car.
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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 9:07 pm

seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:
seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:
seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grime said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'



So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts. This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.



Do you have a link for Martin Grime's statement.Eddie alerted to cadaver scent and then Keela was used (the next day I believe) and she detected blood. Surely blood plus the
detection of cadaver odour results in a body having been there. I don't believe Martin
Grime would compromise his well trained dogs in any way. But I would like to see the link.

Link upthread when I quoted it earlier, but here it is again:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

About the 9th paragraph down.

This is the only piece of information I am interested in. The dogs do not get confused.
They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.Taken from the link.

Eddie barks in alert to cadaver scent or dried blood (never fresh blood) and Keela freezes in alert to fresh or dried blood.

But Eddie won't distinguish between cadaver scent or dried blood, unless I've misunderstood and I'm sure you can point me to the right information.

I posted an analysis from Martin Grime from the link you supplied above. I have to be honest here I realize the dogs are a 'very touchy' subject for the McCann's in this case.
All I would like to add is that 'Dogs don't lie they don't know how to' especially ones that
are trained for specific tasks.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 9:18 pm

seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Eddie does distinguish from the way I read it, he barks at cadaver odour, he does  not bark for blood. (He was originally trained as a blood dog, but that means he froze for blood).  I remember reading all this ages ago in  an article about Mr Grime and he said that Eddie then went on to train as a cadaver dog, which meant that he gave a different alert - barking.    That's why there are two different alerts (again as I read it) so that the handler knows which it is.

Doh, my head is spinning, getting totally confused Laughing

I know. Now I remember why I never read up on it and just took as gospel what others said.

If you can find the article that'd be great because it is very important. If he makes different signals for either blood or cadaver scent then we know for sure if it was cadaver odour in the boot of the car.

Most of the dog articles and Martin Grime have been whooshed, I have been looking but no luck, but will keep searching...

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 10:24 pm

costello wrote:

I posted an analysis from Martin Grime from the link you supplied above. I have to be honest here I realize the dogs are a 'very touchy' subject for the McCann's in this case.
All I would like to add is that 'Dogs don't lie they don't know how to' especially ones that
are trained for specific tasks.

Of course they don't lie. Everyone knows that. They have no motive to.



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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:10 pm


And they can do the most amazing things WITHOUT being specifically trained. If it interests you [plural] I can give you some examples.

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

I may have mentioned this before [I was thrilled, though I have watched and witnessed many amazing things]: Eddie once was taken to a sand beach, where some sand, taken from the coffin of a centuries-old mummy, was spread out. He found it!
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:13 pm

From the Timesonline, 2005:


"When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.

"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:18 pm

Châtelaine wrote:
And they can do the most amazing things WITHOUT being specifically trained. If it interests you [plural] I can give you some examples.

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

I may have mentioned this before [I was thrilled, though I have watched and witnessed many amazing things]: Eddie once was taken to a sand beach, where some sand, taken from the coffin of a centuries-old mummy, was spread out. He found it!

Absolutely! As well as cuddle cat and 2 items of Kate's clothing and one item of the kids' clothing.
That's what I've been trying to say. I 100 % believe in what the dogs have found!

I'm just trying to come to grips with the interpretation of it.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:25 pm

Eddie marking the airplane T-shirt has always bothered me, especially as Sean was seen wearing it after Madeleine's disappearance ...
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:38 pm

Châtelaine wrote:Eddie marking the airplane T-shirt has always bothered me, especially as Sean was seen wearing it after Madeleine's disappearance ...

Good point.

Someone wrote an interesting piece about that here:

https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/mccann-files/
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 6:40 am

Well I seem to have started something so I would like to make it quite clear in case there is any doubt, I believe 100% in the dogs. I have always come back to their alerts whenever I have tried to look at other possibilities as to what may have happened in PDL.
Their indications are what keeps all of us who disbelieve the abduction story looking for answers.
I have wondered from time to time if M ever went to PDL because of other things that tell me she might not have been. For example, the dubious airport footage, produced for no other reason I can think of other than to imply she was there. Who films such a ridiculous scene? I said before that DP is heard on the bus saying "looks like we are on video" yet that supposedly comes after him filming them going up the steps. Wouldn't he already know the camera was on video?
Secondly the lack of credible photos of M in PDL. Thirdly the photo of a younger M being produced that night when the LP was supposedly on the camera. And don't even get me started on the LP itself.
So before the dogs came in, anyone would question her presence, I think. Just because we are told she was there, doesn't prove she was.
Then we have the dogs. What they prove is someone died and the body was there long enough to produce cadaverine. Not who or, more importantly, when.
Instead of working against one another, we should be looking at different scenarios. The same things have been said for nearly 9 years. As I said before I am happy to have anything I say dissected and disproved. It saves a lot of time on my part and sometimes it is difficult to unthink something, or a piece of evidence has been forgotten.
If you don't want to comment that's fine too but could we please not assume that out of the box thinkers are up to something or are dismissing the dogs. It's only a starting point, not a destination.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Neveronasunday on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 6:50 am

Châtelaine wrote:

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

Yes I trust Eddie too, but the clothes in the wardrobe could have acquired the cadaver scent anywhere, not just in Praia.

The link that seahorse gave us regarding Sean's aeroplane T shirt is worth a read. There was a positive cadaver alert on it.

However, is it possible that this and other contaminated clothes were taken to Portugal from the UK following a return trip to pick up extra things when the holiday was extended?

Sean wasn't photographed wearing it until 4 June.

Eddie's alerts may not therefore be inconsistent with death in the UK for example.

It would be ironic if the contaminated clothes hadn't been in Praia to begin with but were transported there later in time for Eddie and Keela to sniff them out!
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:02 am

Neveronasunday wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

Yes I trust Eddie too, but the clothes in the wardrobe could have acquired the cadaver scent anywhere, not just in Praia.

The link that seahorse gave us regarding Sean's aeroplane T shirt is worth a read. There was a positive cadaver alert on it.

However, is it possible that this and other contaminated clothes were taken to Portugal from the UK following a return trip to pick up extra things when the holiday was extended?

Sean wasn't photographed wearing it until 4 June.

Eddie's alerts may not therefore be inconsistent with death in the UK for example.

It would be ironic if the contaminated clothes hadn't been in Praia to begin with but were transported there later in time for Eddie and Keela to sniff them out!

Very interesting thought. It is strange that Sean was wearing the T shirt by June. Had it been M's at one point? We know Kate recycles her kids' clothes.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:14 am

What about the blood alerts then?!? Or did Gerry cut himself shaving in Rothley,pick the scab in 5a....nah, can only be the dried in blood then from previous occupants,who thenwandered about with blood dripping from open wounds only for someone to drop the clothes from Rothley( that Kate had crushed to her not so maternal bosom!)which she had worn when dealing with all the dead bodies lying around Rothley before the visit?? Or more simply Sean had to attend work with Kate? Goodness we could go on for ever with this stuff.......Sorry, Neveronasunday,but my shops all open!

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Neveronasunday on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:21 am

Six corpses? Not even on my radar.

Just the one.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:30 am

Bampots wrote:What about the blood alerts then?!? Or did Gerry cut himself shaving in Rothley,pick the scab in 5a....nah, can only be the dried in blood then from previous occupants,who thenwandered about with blood dripping from open wounds only for someone to drop the clothes from Rothley( that Kate had crushed to her not so maternal bosom!)which she had worn when dealing with all the dead bodies lying around Rothley before the visit?? Or more simply Sean had to attend work with Kate? Goodness we could go on for ever with this stuff.......Sorry, Neveronasunday,but my shops all open!

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but Keela can only alert to blood. She can't tell who it belonged to, or how long the blood was there. That's where forensics come in.

- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)

- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:42 am

I find some of the extrapolation extraordinary at times and just got carried away. I think I have to stick to one cup of coffee the morning!

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:48 am

Bampots wrote:I find some of the extrapolation extraordinary at times and just got carried away. I think I have to stick to one cup of coffee the morning!

Who is extrapolating?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:34 am

Maybe the McCanns are right to sue Mr Amaral after all.
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