Capabilities of the Dogs

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:10 pm

seahorse wrote:From Grime's rogatory the EVRD dog can also alert to dried blood from a live person. But he doesn't say how old that blood needs to be.

"'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Yes but Keela was the blood dog and Eddie was the cadaver dog, so if Keela alerted and Eddie then did then it would be indication of a body being there. If Eddie is sent in and doesn't alert there is no need for Keela to go in to find blood. They both give different signals keela freezes, and eddie barks. IIRC

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:16 pm

costello wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:
nannygroves wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:Ask the dogs Sandra,or is it being said that a false trail was laid to fool the dogs brought in some time later,of course the McCanns could not know of this,conspiracy too far for me.


The McCanns could not know of this? Pray tell me why that is.

If its pre planned and some giant hoax is it seriously being proposed that Mr Grime was in on it?

Absolutely not. I don't even know if the dogs could be confused by synthetic cadaverine. Probably not in which case, game over for there having been no death. What the dogs can't do us tell us when the death happened.

My money is and has always been on the 'Dogs' Chirpy. This is one of the problems the McCann's need to overcome, but which is proving impossible for them.

Just as impossible for OG to wind it up with out taking into the consideration of the dogs.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:28 pm

candyfloss wrote:
seahorse wrote:From Grime's rogatory the EVRD dog can also alert to dried blood from a live person. But he doesn't say how old that blood needs to be.

"'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Yes but Keela was the blood dog and Eddie was the cadaver dog, so if Keela alerted and Eddie then did then it would be indication of a body being there.  If Eddie is sent in and doesn't alert there is no need for Keela to go in to find blood.  They both give different signals keela freezes, and eddie barks.  IIRC




So the alerts behind the sofa / car key could be dried blood from a living person (behind the sofa could be linked to a fall as some speculate).  

APARTMENT
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle



And these are then definitely cadaver odour (if Keela didn't alert):



APARTMENT
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the couple's bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe
- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, the dog handler commented on the lightness of the scent detected

VILLA
- cadaver odour dog:
* on the soft toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (cadaver odour was detected when the soft toy was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)



And this last bit is a bit unclear. I'm assuming the last bit is added by someone outside the PJ.

CAR
- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot

(The PJ Summary Report does not mention the cadaver odour indicated around the base of the driver's door - yet Eddie can be clearly seen in this video indicating cadaver odour there.

Presumably this is because, as Martin Grime explains, Eddie does not need to indicate a precise point - simply that there is cadaver odour there. Keela is then used to pin down precise points for their evidential value)


ETA weren't there also alerts on some items of clothing?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:35 pm

Just seen this tweet,sums it up for me.



@JillyCL #mccann using 2 separate dogs detecting simultaneously across multiple items offers astronomical odds against error.
7h

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:42 pm

candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:45 pm

seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.

Two different alerts though seahorse, barking and freezing so the handler knows if the dog barks he is alerting to cadaver odour, not blood, I believe anyway.


Last edited by candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:49 pm

candyfloss wrote:
seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.

Two different alerts though seahorse, barking and freezing so the handler knows if the dog barks he is alerting to cadaver odour, not blood I believe anyway.

All right, thanks. I'll definitely have some more reading to do then  Wink

ETA just read some more. Eddie barks when he finds a scent. Keela freezes when she finds blood.

So it's not a case of Eddie barking or freezing for different things. He only ever barks or not as the case may be.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


Last edited by seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:55 pm

That's how I read it anyway seahorse, as I said I am not an expert on these things, but Grime goes into the way the dogs react with the different alerts of barking and freezing.

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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:07 pm

seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:15 pm

costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grimes said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'

So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts (barks) Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts (freezes). This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts (barks). Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.


Last edited by seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:56 pm

seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grime said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'



So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts. This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.



Do you have a link for Martin Grime's statement.Eddie alerted to cadaver scent and then Keela was used (the next day I believe) and she detected blood. Surely blood plus the
detection of cadaver odour results in a body having been there. I don't believe Martin
Grime would compromise his well trained dogs in any way. But I would like to see the link.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:03 pm

Link upthread when I quoted it earlier, but here it is again:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

About the 9th paragraph down.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:10 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:I think your right Seahorse, so in the parents bedroom, there was an alert to cadaver only as Keela did not alert in that room.

As well as on cuddle cat and the flowerbed.


Haven't looked into the clothes yet.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:19 pm

seahorse wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:I think your right Seahorse, so in the parents bedroom, there was an alert to cadaver only as Keela did not alert in that room.

As well as on cuddle cat and the flowerbed.


Haven't looked into the clothes yet.

Forgot that too, it's been awhile since I've looked at that part, time for a refresher I think Wink

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:26 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:
seahorse wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:I think your right Seahorse, so in the parents bedroom, there was an alert to cadaver only as Keela did not alert in that room.

As well as on cuddle cat and the flowerbed.


Haven't looked into the clothes yet.

Forgot that too, it's been awhile since I've looked at that part, time for a refresher I think Wink

"2 - 11.30pm: An initial inspection by the human blood detecting dog, began with the clothing packed in the box bearing the notation: "Living room." At 11.40pm, the inspection was completed without the dog showing anything abnormal.

11.41: The canine human remains recovery dog started its inspection and "marked" various clothes. The inspection was completed at 11.52pm. The clothes were returned to their box for later use. "

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

Cadaver scent on various clothes as well!

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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:34 pm

seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:
seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grime said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'



So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts. This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.



Do you have a link for Martin Grime's statement.Eddie alerted to cadaver scent and then Keela was used (the next day I believe) and she detected blood. Surely blood plus the
detection of cadaver odour results in a body having been there. I don't believe Martin
Grime would compromise his well trained dogs in any way. But I would like to see the link.

Link upthread when I quoted it earlier, but here it is again:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

About the 9th paragraph down.

This is the only piece of information I am interested in. The dogs do not get confused.
They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.Taken from the link.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:37 pm

Eddie barks in alert to cadaver scent or dried blood (never fresh blood) and Keela freezes in alert to fresh or dried blood.

But Eddie won't distinguish between cadaver scent or dried blood, unless I've misunderstood and I'm sure you can point me to the right information.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 8:44 pm

Eddie does distinguish from the way I read it, he barks at cadaver odour, he does  not bark for blood. (He was originally trained as a blood dog, but that means he froze for blood).  I remember reading all this ages ago in  an article about Mr Grime and he said that Eddie then went on to train as a cadaver dog, which meant that he gave a different alert - barking.    That's why there are two different alerts (again as I read it) so that the handler knows which it is.

Doh, my head is spinning, getting totally confused Laughing

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 9:03 pm

candyfloss wrote:Eddie does distinguish from the way I read it, he barks at cadaver odour, he does  not bark for blood. (He was originally trained as a blood dog, but that means he froze for blood).  I remember reading all this ages ago in  an article about Mr Grime and he said that Eddie then went on to train as a cadaver dog, which meant that he gave a different alert - barking.    That's why there are two different alerts (again as I read it) so that the handler knows which it is.

Doh, my head is spinning, getting totally confused Laughing

I know. Now I remember why I never read up on it and just took as gospel what others said.

If you can find the article that'd be great because it is very important. If he makes different signals for either blood or cadaver scent then we know for sure if it was cadaver odour in the boot of the car.
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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 9:07 pm

seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:
seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:
seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grime said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'



So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts. This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.



Do you have a link for Martin Grime's statement.Eddie alerted to cadaver scent and then Keela was used (the next day I believe) and she detected blood. Surely blood plus the
detection of cadaver odour results in a body having been there. I don't believe Martin
Grime would compromise his well trained dogs in any way. But I would like to see the link.

Link upthread when I quoted it earlier, but here it is again:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

About the 9th paragraph down.

This is the only piece of information I am interested in. The dogs do not get confused.
They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.Taken from the link.

Eddie barks in alert to cadaver scent or dried blood (never fresh blood) and Keela freezes in alert to fresh or dried blood.

But Eddie won't distinguish between cadaver scent or dried blood, unless I've misunderstood and I'm sure you can point me to the right information.

I posted an analysis from Martin Grime from the link you supplied above. I have to be honest here I realize the dogs are a 'very touchy' subject for the McCann's in this case.
All I would like to add is that 'Dogs don't lie they don't know how to' especially ones that
are trained for specific tasks.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 9:18 pm

seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Eddie does distinguish from the way I read it, he barks at cadaver odour, he does  not bark for blood. (He was originally trained as a blood dog, but that means he froze for blood).  I remember reading all this ages ago in  an article about Mr Grime and he said that Eddie then went on to train as a cadaver dog, which meant that he gave a different alert - barking.    That's why there are two different alerts (again as I read it) so that the handler knows which it is.

Doh, my head is spinning, getting totally confused Laughing

I know. Now I remember why I never read up on it and just took as gospel what others said.

If you can find the article that'd be great because it is very important. If he makes different signals for either blood or cadaver scent then we know for sure if it was cadaver odour in the boot of the car.

Most of the dog articles and Martin Grime have been whooshed, I have been looking but no luck, but will keep searching...

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 10:24 pm

costello wrote:

I posted an analysis from Martin Grime from the link you supplied above. I have to be honest here I realize the dogs are a 'very touchy' subject for the McCann's in this case.
All I would like to add is that 'Dogs don't lie they don't know how to' especially ones that
are trained for specific tasks.

Of course they don't lie. Everyone knows that. They have no motive to.



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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:10 pm


And they can do the most amazing things WITHOUT being specifically trained. If it interests you [plural] I can give you some examples.

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

I may have mentioned this before [I was thrilled, though I have watched and witnessed many amazing things]: Eddie once was taken to a sand beach, where some sand, taken from the coffin of a centuries-old mummy, was spread out. He found it!
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:13 pm

From the Timesonline, 2005:


"When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.

"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:18 pm

Châtelaine wrote:
And they can do the most amazing things WITHOUT being specifically trained. If it interests you [plural] I can give you some examples.

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

I may have mentioned this before [I was thrilled, though I have watched and witnessed many amazing things]: Eddie once was taken to a sand beach, where some sand, taken from the coffin of a centuries-old mummy, was spread out. He found it!

Absolutely! As well as cuddle cat and 2 items of Kate's clothing and one item of the kids' clothing.
That's what I've been trying to say. I 100 % believe in what the dogs have found!

I'm just trying to come to grips with the interpretation of it.

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