Capabilities of the Dogs

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:36 am

Post subject: Re: Statements from Former Apartment 5 A OccupantsPostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:07 am
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CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5)

Pages 36 to 38—Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon

Date 2008.04.24

Summarised translation:


Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Account
Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon
Occupation: Accountant

Date : 24th April 2008

I am married to Saleigh and we have two children, C...... aged three and J..... aged two.

We stayed in the same apartment that the McCanns would later stay in, apartment 5ª of the Ocean Club. We travelled to Faro on 21st April 2007.

On Wednesday the children were asleep in the apartment and Sal was reading inside. I was in the garden when I heard a male voice say “Ola”. I got up and went towards the man who asked me whether I was interested in making a donation to an orphanage. I talked to him and notice he had an ID label and what seemed to be a book of receipts. I thought he was either genuine or that it was a professional scam. I gave him 10 Euros and I think he gave me a receipt. At no time was he aggressive or persistent. I think he was genuine and it seemed to be a good cause.

There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal except that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. The cut bled for about 45 minutes. As far as I know, nobody else cut themselves in the apartment.

We felt safe in the apartment and were not robbed, neither did anything disappear. The doors, windows and shutters were in perfect working order. There was never any sign that that the doors, windows or shutters had been tampered with, but neither was there any need to check. The front door had a double lock that was difficult to lock, but we managed. The patio door could not be locked from the outside, only from the inside of the apartment and that is why we chose to use the front door when we left the apartment.

We used to open the shutters during the day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing them.


We would generally have breakfast in the Millenium restaurant, we only dined at the Tapas Bar on two occasions. I remember there was a limit to how many times we could eat at the Tapas Bar.

I would like to add that since January of this year I have received numerous phone calls, messages and visits from the press with relation to the man collecting donations, which led to contact with other persons such as Brian Kennedy, Kate and Gerry McCann. I feel this to be constricting and it is difficult for me to make a more certain decision.

I have always tried to collaborate with the police in every possible form, telephoning them at the first opportunity when the news broke about Madeleine’s disappearance. There have been times when I have felt like a pawn in a chess game.


Thanks to McCann files.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:39 am

PdL - where families take it in turn to vomit each night, dog packs pursue and bite joggers, guests fall off catamarans, damage tendons playing tennis, have shaving accidents and stagger around apartments bleeding, domestic appliances need repair, shutters jam, baby monitors won't function at restaurants, travel cots can't be assembled.. sounds like THE VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED.
Anonymous 12 Nov 2013 12:37:00

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:42 am

This is interesting.

There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.

ETA

- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).

27 September 2007

2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details

TRANSLATION BY ALBYM & INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:02 am

chirpyinsect wrote:This is interesting.

There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.

ETA

- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).

 27 September 2007

2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details

TRANSLATION BY ALBYM  &  INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm


Now that is interesting,from the same file.

- After the disappearance apartment 5 A was occupied by the following individuals: 12-06-2007 - 19-06-2007 by R and F. F****** (friends of the owners), from 28-06-2007 - 12-07-2007 by SR, W & CF, 12-07-2007 to 19-07-2007 by BSP and JFP, 19-07-2007 - 26-07-07 by MMS family.

So the dogs were brought in after these dates?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:11 am

Dogs were brought in 31/07/2007


http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:

So the apartment was let a further 4 times before the dogs were brought in,cross contamination defence any one?


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:12 am

There is a thread somewhere on CMoMM where I posted with links a piece from Mr Amaral that stated that the flat was empty for months and that the keys were eventually returned to Mrs Ruth McCann.  If someone is a member there perhaps they can search as I cannot find a link now, it may be in his book, I remember it distinctly as we were having the same discussions re the flat being let, but according to what I posted it wasn't....


Anyway, it is very odd, the different stories, here is this from the Sun, remember we had lots of people say the flat stood empty.  I can't imagine anyone actually staying there after what happened anyway, and would think the tour operators would change their apartment number.

Here is a story from the Sun saying the flat was never used after Madeleien disappeared from it. 


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3754139/Holiday-family-in-Madeleine-McCann-flat.html


Holiday family in Maddie flat

THE holiday apartment where Madeleine McCann was kidnapped is being used by families for the first time since her abduction four years ago.
A couple and their young child were seen at the weekend in the ground-floor flat, which has been empty since Maddie disappeared aged three.
A British tourist at the Ocean Complex resort in Praia da Luz, Portugal, said: “I saw a young family staying in the apartment, enjoying their holiday.
“They didn’t seem to have a care in the world, and if I hadn’t known of the flat’s history, I wouldn’t have given it a second look.” The apartment’s British owner, retired Liverpool teacher Ruth McCann, 57, has been trying to sell it for £255,000 since Maddie’s abduction.
Mrs McCann — no relation to Maddie’s family — took the two-bedroom flat off the market last May after finding no one was interested because of its background. She was now believed to be letting it again to holidaymakers.
Maddie disappeared from her bedroom in May 2007 while her parents, Leicestershire doctors Gerry and Kate, were dining with friends at a nearby restaurant.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:16 am

Flies in the face of the files though candy.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:18 am

Maybe after the dogs it was not let to anyone?

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  canada12 on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:21 am

One might expect that a followup to the cross-contamination suggestion would be, the police checked all the occupants before and after the McCanns, up until the time the dogs were brought in, and nobody reported any deaths or the proximity to any deaths and nobody reported any situation where blood spatter could be explained behind the sofa? Therefore by process of elimination... what were the chances of cross contamination...?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:22 am

Heisenburg wrote:Flies in the face of the files though candy.

Yes, it does, I totally agree, but I do remember people being interviewed in PDL saying that the apartment remained empty.  scratch And I definitely remember posting the link on the other place.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:24 am

Where or when would cadaver odour stop being transferable? Otherwise all clothes would alert, heck, doctors/police could be muderers, what would be the point with Eddie? I've just buried my father-in-law (called Eddie) yesterday, do I have cadaver odour? Just questions and I totally believe in Eddie and Keela!
IMO.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:29 am

dogs don't lie wrote:Where or when would cadaver odour stop being transferable? Otherwise all clothes would alert, heck, doctors/police could be muderers, what would be the point with Eddie? I've just buried my father-in-law (called Eddie) yesterday, do I have cadaver odour? Just questions and I totally believe in Eddie and Keela!
IMO.

As an aside,FIL died in his flat over 12 months ago its been occupied since I wonder if Cadaver dogs would alert.
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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:33 am

dogs don't lie wrote:Where or when would cadaver odour stop being transferable? Otherwise all clothes would alert, heck, doctors/police could be muderers, what would be the point with Eddie? I've just buried my father-in-law (called Eddie) yesterday, do I have cadaver odour? Just questions and I totally believe in Eddie and Keela!
IMO.

That is the question ddl, good point and I totally agree with you. Sincere condolences with regards to your father-in-law.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Neveronasunday on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:36 am

I feel we have to be very precise on this subject and recognise the particular point that seahorse made yesterday - ie that we haven't yet conclusively established if Eddie reacted in different ways to cadaver and blood. Before this discussion goes any further, do we have confirmation or otherwise of that?

If not, cadaver scent was only present in places where he reacted and Keela didn't.

This is something that I have never seen discussed on forums before and it is crucial to determine the places where cadaver scent was found, as opposed to blood. And, let's face it, people bleed on many days in many places.

I would also like to know if Eddie and Keela would have reacted, for example, to a piece of meat that had dripped blood on a kitchen worktop while preparing lunch. Any thoughts on that?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  canada12 on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:40 am

Here's the link to the info about who occupied 5A after the McCanns...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm

This does unfortunately give another reason why the dogs' evidence might be dismissed in court... they were brought in too late, and the crime scene was not secured in the interim.

ETA - I totally believe the dogs found incriminating evidence and that it is very relevant to the case. I just feel, unfortunately, that because of the length of time it took to bring them in, and because the apartment was not locked and secured, their evidence would be robustly challenged in court and possibly dismissed for those reasons.


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:40 am

Thanks Costello, I think we really all need to understand this, how it works. I think MG said Eddie gave a strong alert at the sofa and the wardrobe but I need to study again to try and understand.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:44 am

Think Keela only reacts to blood from a deceased human and nothing else, including animals, still, don't take my word I still need to refresh.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:49 am

Neveronasunday wrote:I feel we have to be very precise on this subject and recognise the particular point that seahorse made yesterday - ie that we haven't yet conclusively established if Eddie reacted in different ways to cadaver and blood. Before this discussion goes any further, do we have confirmation or otherwise of that?

If not, cadaver scent was only present in places where he reacted and Keela didn't.

This is something that I have never seen discussed on forums before and it is crucial to determine the places where cadaver scent was found, as opposed to blood. And, let's face it, people bleed on many days in many places.

I would also like to know if Eddie and Keela would have reacted, for example, to a piece of meat that had dripped blood on a kitchen worktop while preparing lunch. Any thoughts on that?

As I posted earlier here's an article from the Timesonline, 2005, so before this whole saga started:


"When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.

"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

So we know from the above that only Keela ever froze. The other dogs including Eddie barked. So I would deduce from that that Eddie made no distinction between cadaver odour and dried blood.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:53 am

So does that mean when Keela freezes, indicates that blood is from a human corpse and only a human corpse?

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:54 am

dogs don't lie wrote:So does that mean when Keela freezes, indicates that blood is from a human corpse and only a human corpse?

Not necessarily. It could be dried blood from a live or dead person. Or it could be dried blood from a dead or live pig (on which she was trained).

ETA as Heisenberg points out below Keela only detects human blood. So I am wrong in the above.


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 10:00 am

M Grime says Eddie only barks when he finds something,in this case only cadaver alert,Keela only alerts to human blood..

Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 10:00 am

Another bit of interesting information:

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crime-scene-canines-835047.html

Backed up by Grime in his rogatory:

"'How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected''
Cross-contamination is immediate."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm






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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 10:04 am

Heisenburg wrote:M Grime says Eddie only barks when he finds something,in this case only cadaver alert,Keela only alerts to human blood..

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something

Yes, you're right. Keela was only trained on human blood from donors.

EVRD dogs were trained on pigs (as training on human cadaver was and maybe still is illegal in the UK) but from what I understood had training in the USA on human cadavers where it is legal.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 10:12 am

dogs don't lie wrote:Think Keela only reacts to blood from a deceased human and nothing else, including animals, still, don't take my word I still need to refresh.

Not got time at the moment to check but I think Keela can react to dried blood from a live human but not fresh blood. Correction welcome.


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Sat 05 Mar 2016, 10:13 am

seahorse wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:M Grime says Eddie only barks when he finds something,in this case only cadaver alert,Keela only alerts to human blood..

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something

Yes, you're right. Keela was only trained on human blood from donors.

EVRD dogs were trained on pigs (as training on human cadaver was and maybe still is illegal in the UK) but from what I understood had training in the USA on human cadavers where it is legal.

Although the dog is not named it seems as if Eddie is used first so its safe to assume this is Eddie he is referring to,the dog can differentiate between pork and human..

There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however
see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat
foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.
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