Capabilities of the Dogs

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Wed 18 May 2016, 8:10 pm

Bump this answer from earlier...the point for me is this , do you follow the ideas of Goncalo (or anyone who you respect for that matter!) or those of Satsuma ....who I may add is providing page after page of game playing in the smug supercilious manner that she has honed to perfection....
Amaral can be quoted and thank goodness he has otherwise people would walk around listening to disruptor so like you. And this has been a great disruption......except it just an idle interlude Sat and as hard as you try,it comes down to a choice,who do we believe, you or Gonzalo Amaral? I know where my money is...... I leave a quote from Gonzalos book courtesy of Textusa. And if we are too listen to his words seems like someone else believes him...... “On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine's DNA profile. As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed. Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue: either this LCN technique is not reliable or it's simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: "With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England. Touché Madame Satsuma wrote:

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Re:Capabilities of the dogs.

Post  costello on Wed 18 May 2016, 8:28 pm

Bampots wrote:Bump this answer from earlier...the point for me is this , do you follow the ideas of Goncalo (or anyone who you respect for that matter!) or those of Satsuma ....who I may add is providing page after page of game playing in the smug supercilious manner that she has honed to perfection....

I'm with you all the way here Bampots. Well sussed.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Wed 18 May 2016, 8:30 pm




Amaral can be quoted and thank goodness he has otherwise people would walk around listening to disruptor so like you. And this has been a great disruption......except it just an idle interlude Sat and as hard as you try,it comes down to a choice,who do we believe, you or Gonzalo Amaral? I know where my money is...... I leave a quote from Gonzalos book courtesy of Textusa. And if we are too listen to his words seems like someone else believes him...... “On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine's DNA profile. As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed. Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue: either this LCN technique is not reliable or it's simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance. At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: "With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England. Touché Madame Satsuma wrote:

I think Kate McCann's lawyer said almost exactly the same...

Mrs McCann says their lawyer warned them: ‘If you were Portuguese, this would be enough to put you in prison.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385336/Kate-McCann-Madeleine-guilt-meant-I-make-love-Gerry.html

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  dogs don't lie on Wed 18 May 2016, 8:48 pm

Who was it that said 15/19 markers would have been enough also?!?

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Wed 18 May 2016, 9:01 pm

GA was and always was right, imo.

Hence the disgraceful rubbish that quickly followed him.

If he was totally off the mark, then TM would of left him be.

He was too smart for them (TM), hence the bollox that followed.

And it did follow, for years.

No more though.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Wed 18 May 2016, 11:33 pm

Andrew wrote:GA was and always was right, imo.

Hence the disgraceful rubbish that quickly followed him.

If he was totally off the mark, then TM would of left him be.

He was too smart for them (TM), hence the bollox that followed.

And it did follow, for years.

No more though.

That's where you're hitting the nail on the head! They hadn't counted on his intelligence!

If only he'd been allowed to stay on the case, he would have solved the case.

So why was he taken off and who took him off. We know he wasn't sacked despite SMS repeating that myth ad nauseum.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Thu 19 May 2016, 7:25 am

As he was about to solve the case (imo), then I reckon Gordon begged Socrates to do something as not to embarrass him (Gordon) or the nation (UK) at the time.

'if you scratch my back and all that'

Socrates strikes me as the sort of person who could be easily persuaded/bribed.

I mean he did get arrested for corruption (amongst other things).
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  AndyB on Thu 19 May 2016, 7:58 am

Satsuma wrote:
AndyB wrote:Who says we're looking for proof? What proof have you offered?
There, in a nutshell, is the reason that you're getting nowhere, along with nearly everyone else on here. You want to accuse but you have no proof. I don't need proof because I'm not claiming I know what happened, I'm just showing how flimsy your argument is
And there, in a nutshell, are all your problems rolled into one post. Perhaps, if you ever grow up, you'll learn that sneering condescension is not the way to deal with your insecurities but will end up making you even more disliked. I have no time for negative people like you who refuse to communicate on an even footing so congratulations, you're the first person on this site, and only the second person ever, to end up in my ignore file. Before I go though;
1) I'm not trying to get anywhere
2) I'm my own person with my own thoughts and ideas, I'm not with "nearly everyone else". I'm sure there are many here who will be able to attest to this
3) The only accusations I have made are that you are sneering and condescending and I stand by those. I have made none in connection with the Madeleine Mccann case
4) That you require everyone else to have proof yet excuse yourself the same burden for entirely spurious reasons speaks volumes about your character
5) In my last post I told you that I wasn't looking for proof it is only you that sets the barrier so high
6) I'm not claiming I know what happened either so don't suggest that I did
7) My only argument is that the most likely explanation for Eddie's alerts is the simplest one that requires the fewest assumptions (in this case no assumptions at all) - that he alerted to where a body had been. You continuously and deliberately ignore this point, despite it being central to everything that I have written on this thread because you have no answer. I suggest you google Occams Razor
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Thu 19 May 2016, 8:23 am

Was just having a quick read of the PJ files over breakfast (as you do) and came across this about Russell O'Brien. Never come across it before about him having a car...

To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.

In the context of the investigation, we have collected information concerning a vehicle used by RUSSELL O'BRIEN, friend and member of the group who spent their holiday with the McCann family in the Algarve . At the time of the request for vehicles considered important to the procedures that follow, we were not aware of the identification details of this vehicle. Meantime, our investigation has led us to establish that it may be a vehicle of the "Opel" range, a "Corsa" model, registration....AG - 62. At the present time, we do not have a mandate to search for and seize the vehicle to allow us to add the vehicle to the planned inspections. As a consequence, we request such a legal mandate in order to be able to realize the planned inspections.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Thu 19 May 2016, 8:42 am

Satsuma wrote:Well if you want to believe that the judge knew more about the dogs than their own handler, that's up to you. The court can only work on the information that it's given,  and that will have been provided by the PJ

I believe a judge over any thing you say.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Thu 19 May 2016, 10:13 am

Andrew wrote:Was just having a quick read of the PJ files over breakfast (as you do) and came across this about Russell O'Brien. Never come across it before about him having a car...

To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.

In the context of the investigation, we have collected information concerning a vehicle used by RUSSELL O'BRIEN, friend and member of the group who spent their holiday with the McCann family in the Algarve . At the time of the request for vehicles considered important to the procedures that follow, we were not aware of the identification details of this vehicle. Meantime, our investigation has led us to establish that it may be a vehicle of the "Opel" range, a "Corsa" model, registration....AG - 62. At the present time, we do not have a mandate to search for and seize the vehicle to allow us to add the vehicle to the planned inspections. As a consequence, we request such a legal mandate in order to be able to realize the planned inspections.


Not got time to search but wasn't it a Corsa mistakenly photographed as belonging to WK? Somewhere in files. Not sure.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu 19 May 2016, 7:24 pm

Sorry to be late to the party with this - but I think this snippet is worth rereading on this subject.




http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/ Expert Opinion, 29 January 2014  

It does not take an expert dog handler therefore to arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Martin Grime’s Springer Spaniel ‘Eddie’ indicated the presence, at some time or another, of a corpse in 5A the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, just as he had been trained to do and had done on many previous occasions.

The resultant paradigm is so simple that even those lacking the sense to which Ian Horrocks refers cannot fail to understand it:

Corpse transient (i.e., none found).

Recorded deaths in 5A prior to May 3, 2007 = 0

Recorded deaths in 5A post the McCanns’ occupation = 0

Occupants reported missing = 1 (Madeleine McCann).

No one, not even Gerry McCann, noticed a ‘little body’ inside 5A that night. One thing among many that a corpse cannot do of course is walk. How intriguing therefore that other items to which the EVR dog Eddie gave a positive reaction included a car key fob, and the car itself. (The word ‘transport’ springs immediately to mind).

As we know, in the enlightened legal world that is the UK and elsewhere, indications given by an EVR dog are insufficient of themselves. A CSI animal is required to operate ‘in tandem’ in order to source the sort of biological evidence that is acceptable, e.g., blood residues and the like.

- See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/#sthash.DM0mTUzw.dpuf

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Dee Coy on Thu 19 May 2016, 9:31 pm

Thank you, bluebell. Never seen that Dr Roberts piece before. As ever, logical and succinct. Clarified the notion that the dogs are employed in tandem to confirm either blood, cadaverine or both. Excellent stuff,  thank you.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 9:26 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/cadaver-dogs-science-training-1.3654993
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 9:32 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/adrien-mcnaughton-search-lake-1.3550321


@Canada12 - is this a case that you are familiar with?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 6:21 pm

Just came across a radio interview posted on twitter,interestingly at 14 minutes its talks of an infant decomposing quicker because of smaller organs etc,given that, is it possible that cadaver scent could have formed if Madeleine did indeed have an accident at 8-30 ish?

https://rmriinc.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dean_beers_conversation.mp3
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  poster on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 6:24 pm

bluebell wrote:Sorry to be late to the party with this - but I think this snippet is worth rereading on this subject.




http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/ Expert Opinion, 29 January 2014  

It does not take an expert dog handler therefore to arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Martin Grime’s Springer Spaniel ‘Eddie’ indicated the presence, at some time or another, of a corpse in 5A the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, just as he had been trained to do and had done on many previous occasions.

The resultant paradigm is so simple that even those lacking the sense to which Ian Horrocks refers cannot fail to understand it:

Corpse transient (i.e., none found).

Recorded deaths in 5A prior to May 3, 2007 = 0

Recorded deaths in 5A post the McCanns’ occupation = 0

Occupants reported missing = 1 (Madeleine McCann).

No one, not even Gerry McCann, noticed a ‘little body’ inside 5A that night. One thing among many that a corpse cannot do of course is walk. How intriguing therefore that other items to which the EVR dog Eddie gave a positive reaction included a car key fob, and the car itself. (The word ‘transport’ springs immediately to mind).

As we know, in the enlightened legal world that is the UK and elsewhere, indications given by an EVR dog are insufficient of themselves. A CSI animal is required to operate ‘in tandem’ in order to source the sort of biological evidence that is acceptable, e.g., blood residues and the like.

- See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/#sthash.DM0mTUzw.dpuf

Although David Payne at the time of his alleged visit to apartment 5A in the early evening of that fateful Thursday did wax emotional about how all three children looked like angels. His over-embellished account of how well cared for and happy the children looked is such a giveaway, imo. I suspect one of the children was anything but and, judging by the language he and other Tapas use in their rogatories (eg: Matt noticing a road they were searching on was called Cemetary Road - why would that be significant if the search was supposedly for a live child who had been abducted?) I strongly suspect that by 6.30pm on that fateful Thursday evening Madeleine was already dead.

And of course none of the group had a sports bag that was large enough to hide a small body tennis raquet in either!

I think if you read between the lines of the Tapas rogatories and scrutinize their alleged routines that week you can pretty much work out what happened and even when.

You can also work out who the important eye-witnesses are because they are either dissed - Mrs Fenn/social worker Yvette Martin -  or their sightings morped into a person who looks completely different - Mrs Fenn's niece/the Smiths.

Kate's desperate attempt to morph Smithman into Tannerman must mean that the Smith sighting - whoever it actually was - is important and potentially incriminating. I tend to believe it was GM in desperation carrying out a fake abduction at 10pm when there was supposed to have been one at 9.15pm. This would account for the bodged timelines and the fact that some witnesses reporting hearing a commotion about a missing child as early as 9.20pm.

ETA: So who the heck was supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters at 9.15pm I wonder?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 6:53 pm

poster wrote:
ETA: So who the heck was supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters at 9.15pm I wonder?

Some geezer who happened to bump into some one out walking his child in a pushchair perchance?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 8:16 pm

Heisenburg wrote:
poster wrote:
ETA: So who the heck was supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters at 9.15pm I wonder?

Some geezer who happened to bump into some one out walking his child in a pushchair perchance?
***
Right. And now imagine why someone not involved [I should have put that between reading marks] SEES both men [who cannot decided were they were standing, talking .. well at least GM cannot] and indeed no chance to "jemmy" whatever ...
On top and IMO, they'd never realised that PT was UK time [contrary to European continent], so they released the alert to family [and press?] too early.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  poster on Wed 27 Jul 2016, 11:23 pm

I wonder whether there was an element of deliberate sabotage in this encounter?

If, as some have theorized, Madeleine was seriously hurt or even died earlier in the week then it is possible that some people got wind that something was up...it would be incredibly difficult to hide something like that in a holiday resort when the parents, their children and their friends' families are meeting up every day and sharing activities.

My money is on something having happened by Monday which is when the McCann routine deviates from that of their friends. I find kiko's analysis of the creche records quite compelling. And I find the collective TM amnesia about quiz night of interest. Neither KM or GM even mention it in their rogatories as far as I am aware and KM is incredibly vague about evening activities in her book. There is no mention of the Sunday quiz night that the quiz hostess states she did at the Tapas on Sunday night which would surely be one of the social highlights of the week? There is also no mention of the quiz night on Tuesday night - supposedly also at the Tapas although it seems quite unlikely, imo, that two quiz nights would be held so close together?

I wonder what other guests and staff say about quiz night - if anything?

A theory in a nutshell:

1. On Saturday at the OC welcome meeting GM's eyes light up when he spots a certain person who could potentially turn the family holiday from hell into something a little more diverting.

2. Quiz night on Sunday - wherever it was - develops a frisson. KM is not amused and is quite literally left holding the babies. 'Something' happens that night or possibly the next day - Monday - and the McCanns change their routine from that of their friends. Creche signature records appear to show remarkably similar signatures suggesting that GM may have signed in another child - apparently unconnected with the TM group alongside Madeleine (or, if you believe kiko's theory Madalene). The 'something' could be an accident or some kind of abuse or it could possibly relate to the day that Madeleine was supposed to have disappeared (Sagres?) On the other hand maybe 'something' happened at Sagres or even Burghau  (what's so special about Burghau over the way?) some have speculated?

3. No record of daytime activities on Monday from Kate in her book. This suggests to me something happened that she would prefer to keep silent about. A visit to the supermarket for 'essentials' in the early evening of Monday might be suggestive of a certain scenario perhaps? What essentials - suntan lotion and flipflops or something a bit more 'essential' maybe?

4. Weird tennis ball photo of Madeleine taken allegedly on Tuesday. Suggestive, imo, that Madeleine could not and did not take part in the mini tennis with her creche group that day. Photo did not appear for some time despite allegedly having been taken by Kate on Tuesday and therefore should have been available immediately.

5. A second quiz night on Tuesday - wherever it was held - at which GM invites the quiz host to his table throws petrol on the flames and all hell breaks loose. A neighbour overhears crying from the apartment for a long period of time. KM leaves the dinner table early and her phone is used shortly before the crying breaks out. The crying stops abruptly when the neighbour hears the patio doors opening or closing signifying someone or several people entering or of course leaving the apartment.

6. Wednesday KM and GM allegedly join the Payne adult members at the Millennium for coffee as their tennis is postponed due to rain. Kate then goes running, allegedly with Matt and apparently is bitten by a dog on the calf. She writes: 'maybe he just didn't like those pink trainers' but on the other hand maybe he sniffed out something else he didn't like about Kate? Dogs do have highly tuned noses and don't lie unlike people. According to Kate this was the night she and GM had a tiff and slept apart but I suspect this happened earlier in the week and quite possibly on several nights. The fact that Kate says this was unprecedented suggests to me that it wasn't (ahem!)

7. Thursday morning - an elaborate and entirely unbelievable account of how Madeleine at breakfast asks where her parents were when she and Sean cried the previous evening. But just drops the subject happily and moves on. This suggests to me that there was a crying incident earlier in the week involving Madeleine that was significant and was deeply distressing to her. And I suspect Kate was unable/unwilling to console her for whatever reason (possibly relating to Gasper statements?) Including Sean in the scenario I think is done to suggest that Madeleine was still in the same room as her siblings on Wednesday night when I suspect she wasn't. Plus also possibly covering bases in terms of Mrs Fenn's statement

8. Later on Thursday morning - beyond weird explanation of an encounter with a fellow guest with, allegedly, a video-recorder who is apparently embarrassed about videoing his three year old daughter playing mini-tennis as it 'made him feel like a dirty old man'. I think TM have deliberately distorted an incident in which they were caught red-handed video-recording someone else's child playing mini-tennis. Would love to see Nigel's statement. Possibly to produce as 'evidence' that Madeleine played mini-tennis that week. When maybe she didn't.[/i]

9. Kate writes about considering cancelling their Tapas booking and 'taking the kids to the Millennium instead' as she allegedly felt guilty because another couple had been unsuccessful about booking there and she wondered if it was fair that they were taking over the place. Interesting addendum - probably designed to a) suggest that all the children were fine and able to go to Millennium on Thursday night when this was not the case and b) to make it appear that she and Gerry had nothing more pressing to worry about than an altruistic concern about fellow diners. When in reality they were desperate to cover their backs perhaps? Kate and Gerry for the first time that week take part in a couples' tennis session on  Thursday afternoon. I suspect this was to try to show they had nothing more pressing to do than play tennis when this may not have been the case perhaps.

10. David Payne's alleged visit to apartment 5A that evening at around 6.30pm is hugely incriminating imo whether or not it actually took place. I believe it places him as being central (alongside GM, imo) to what happened that week. And I do not think the Gaspar statements should be ignored in this context either.

Unbelievable that Scotland Yard are still dithering around about this case...Keystone cops...or perhaps they are stuck between a rock and a hard place?

At least Saintly Kate and Statesman Gerry have been dethroned and I note how very, very supporters they have.

The whole 'troll' thing backfired because they are both quite stupid, imo, and unbelievably narcissistic.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 6:08 pm

Interesting theory poster, after 9 years all theories are worth consideration imo.    

I've been following the disappearance of Deorr Kunz for the past year  - a 2 year old from the USA who apparently completely vanished off the face of the earth without trace on a camping trip with parents.   No leads, no real evidence, he just vanished.  A different continent but a lot in common except in Maddie's time social media wasn't so prevalent as it is now.

Sorry, I diverse.  I really just had a question about "the lady in purple" who was apparently seen by more than one witness on the Thursday evening, outside/close to Apartment 5a.  I would be interested in your thoughts on her.  

Is she important?  Are the witnesses trustworthy?  Why was she there?  Is it even relevant?    Thanks.  j.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 6:15 pm

Any links to files or newspapers you could provide for the lady in....purple confused ......please bluebell??

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 6:21 pm

Lady in purple was Jane Tanner if memory serves and it probably doesn't.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 6:25 pm

Possibly Andrew.......     I've always assumed it was one of the T9 ladies.

Bampots - I will find some links for you, but be patient please.      Smile



ETA- Bampots, to begin, this from The Express http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/100071/EXCLUSIVE-Who-was-the-woman-outside-Maddie-s-flat


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Woman in purple

Post  bluebell on Thu 28 Jul 2016, 6:40 pm

I am not sure how much confidence there is generally in this site, but still an interesting read in this bit :

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6300.45

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