McCANNS LOSE THEIR APPEAL!! GONCALO WINS 31/01/17 in Supreme Court

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Post  Andrew on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:24 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:Not exact words but didn't CM  say he'd be there for them if and when needed?

I just googled 'Clarence Mitchell fired by the McCann's' and this is snipped from the very first article:

Mr Mitchell told the Mirror last night: “It makes perfect sense for Kate and Gerry to keep careful consideration over all their costs. I will continue to help them as circumstances require.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-dump-key-8731091
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Post  candyfloss on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:32 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:Not exact words but didn't CM  say he'd be there for them if and when needed?

Yes I think he did ddl, he said in not so many words he would still be there. I suppose it would look very bad if they stopped paying him and he stopped speaking, doesn't do your cred much good Smile

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Post  bluebell on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:39 pm

froggy wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Bampots wrote:Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “If it does appear, whoever is responsible will be sued.
That does raise the interesting question as to what effect, if any, the Portuguese supreme court judgement has on the McCanns ability to use the English libel courts to stop the book being published.

On line versions already exist and English law couldn't stop it being published in English outside UK and being sold over the internet to all countries, possibly even by Amazon.


Sorry to quote so many, but what will be the legal position on sales in the UK or is it an unknown still ?
Is there any precedent ? I wonder if the McC's biggest fear is that one of the broadsheets may publish it in weekly instalments.

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Post  Andrew on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:52 pm

@bluebell. This doesn't really answer your question but it was something I was reading last night which I found quite interesting:

http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work
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Post  candyfloss on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:57 pm

bluebell wrote:
froggy wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Bampots wrote:Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “If it does appear, whoever is responsible will be sued.
That does raise the interesting question as to what effect, if any, the Portuguese supreme court judgement has on the McCanns ability to use the English libel courts to stop the book being published.

On line versions already exist and English law couldn't stop it being published in English outside UK and being sold over the internet to all countries, possibly even by Amazon.


Sorry to quote so many, but what will be the legal position on sales in the UK or is it an unknown still ?
Is there any precedent ?    I wonder if the McC's biggest fear is that one of the broadsheets may publish it in weekly instalments.

I don't know how it stands either bluebell, but we are still in the EU and will be for a while yet, along with Portugal, so surely if the Supreme Court ok'd it then the same should go for here? scratch I think that is why it can't really go much further, I would think the ECHU would rule the same as Portugal in that Freedom of Speech is the right of every individual and Goncalo was only writing about the investigation documented in the files, which of course are online anyway and anyone can read them.

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Post  AndyB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:01 pm

bluebell wrote:
froggy wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Bampots wrote:Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “If it does appear, whoever is responsible will be sued.
That does raise the interesting question as to what effect, if any, the Portuguese supreme court judgement has on the McCanns ability to use the English libel courts to stop the book being published.

On line versions already exist and English law couldn't stop it being published in English outside UK and being sold over the internet to all countries, possibly even by Amazon.


Sorry to quote so many, but what will be the legal position on sales in the UK or is it an unknown still ?
Is there any precedent ?    I wonder if the McC's biggest fear is that one of the broadsheets may publish it in weekly instalments.
There are two examples I'm aware of that, while not exactly precedents, have similar features. The first is Spycatcher, which was a book written by an ex-spy and which was published in English in Australia. For a while it was banned in the UK. The second is Pat Brown's book which is written in English and available throughout the world via Amazon, with the exception of one country: Britain, where presumably Amazon are terrified of our outrageously repressive libel laws
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Post  Mo on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:03 pm

candyfloss wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:Not exact words but didn't CM  say he'd be there for them if and when needed?

Yes I think he did ddl, he said in not so many words he would still be there.  I suppose it would look very bad if they stopped paying him and he stopped speaking, doesn't do your cred much good Smile

I've checked his Twitter feed but he hasn't said anything about it - he's not even responded to a few tweets from Robert Carlisle. Mind you it's not the best tweet to get a response.

@mitch_1uk @treesey @oliviersarbil @agliggett @adavies4 @Channel4News What do you have to say about the #McCann child neglecters court loss
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Post  AndyB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:06 pm

candyfloss wrote:
bluebell wrote:
froggy wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Bampots wrote:Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “If it does appear, whoever is responsible will be sued.
That does raise the interesting question as to what effect, if any, the Portuguese supreme court judgement has on the McCanns ability to use the English libel courts to stop the book being published.

On line versions already exist and English law couldn't stop it being published in English outside UK and being sold over the internet to all countries, possibly even by Amazon.


Sorry to quote so many, but what will be the legal position on sales in the UK or is it an unknown still ?
Is there any precedent ?    I wonder if the McC's biggest fear is that one of the broadsheets may publish it in weekly instalments.

I don't know how it stands either bluebell, but we are still in the EU and will be for a while yet, along with Portugal, so surely if the Supreme Court ok'd it then the same should go for here? scratch I think that is why it can't really go much further, I would think the ECHU would rule the same as Portugal in that Freedom of Speech is the right of every individual and Goncalo was only writing about the investigation documented in the files, which of course are online anyway and anyone can read them.
The ECHR hasn't heard the case and I'm not sure what relevance our membership of the EU has on a legal matter when all EU member states have their own laws. (Granted, IF the ECHR heard the case and IF it sided with the Portuguese supreme court, then that would be binding on the UK). The key question for me is the one I raised earlier: what effect, if any, the Portuguese supreme court judgement has on the McCann's ability to use the English libel courts to stop the book being published. In other words, how binding is a Portuguese Supreme Court verdict on the UK? (I have no idea)
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Post  bluebell on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:19 pm

@ AndyB - No doubt (re your above comment) that is what the McCann's must be attempting to clarify themselves at the moment Razz

Banning or attempting to ban something always seems to make it more desirable, n'est pas?

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Post  AndyB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:33 pm

bluebell wrote:@ AndyB  -  No doubt (re your above comment) that is what the McCann's must be attempting to clarify themselves at the moment      Razz

Banning or attempting to ban something always seems to make it more desirable, n'est pas?
Yep - also known as The Streisand Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
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Post  Bloodhound on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:50 pm

If they do scare the life out of UK publishers with threats to sue they can't stop the book being published in English and sold in other English speaking countries surely, like Ireland and America, or being sold online and being in English libraries.
Their threats to sue are drawing attention to the book and more and more people will want to read it, even people not interested in the case.
If I was told I wasn't allowed to read something then I would make sure to read it. The McCanns and their advisors have no common sense at all.
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Post  Poe on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:55 pm

What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?

The publisher and seller would have their local law on their side so I don't see how the McCanns could stop them apart from threatening everyone in the UK who bought a copy.

Suppose the press is whipping up enough interest so that it becomes financially viable to publish installments even with the possibility of having to pay damages e.g. after paying Mr Amaral for serialisation rights, a guaranteed income of £10 million but having to pay the 4 McCanns a million each would still leave a hefty £6 million profit.

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Post  Mimi on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:57 pm

I think the difficulty has always been that no UK publisher is willing to risk it because of the threats by the MCs to sue any publisher that does, but don`t know whether the Portuguese SC judgement will make any difference as they could still sue here in UK.  Then there`s the possibility that an American Publisher would go ahead - I don`t think the Mcs would win in the USA.

PS - Just seen Poe`s post - a good way round things Poe.

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Post  Bloodhound on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 2:58 pm

Whatever about suing publishers, but I'm sure they can't sue people for buying the book.

I hope it's printed in English and sold in every bookstore worldwide. Laughing
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Post  AndyB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:12 pm

Poe wrote:What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?
My guess is that they could still sue for those copies that were sold to the UK
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Post  Andrew on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:19 pm

Well hopefully as we speak, then G.A is with the publishers/printers now to get these books back out in circulation again ASAP.

And without a doubt they'll be a lot of publishers in the U.K speaking to their legal time right now as well.
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Post  Andrew on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:22 pm

AndyB wrote:
Poe wrote:What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?
My guess is that they could still sue for those copies that were sold to the UK

I can't see how they could.
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Post  candyfloss on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:22 pm

AndyB wrote:
Poe wrote:What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?
My guess is that they could still sue for those copies that were sold to the UK

It would be my opinion that if sent out from Portugal, a country allowed to sell it, then the McCanns and lawyers cannot dictate who buys it. How could you enforce that?

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Post  bluebell on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:31 pm

Somebody mentioned Ireland earlier? So if it was printed in English and bought over the internet by an Irish resident,,,,,,
then that person could forward it to their forum friends in Great Britain (waves to ddl and Bloodhound bounce ) perhaps Very Happy

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Post  AndyB on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:32 pm

candyfloss wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Poe wrote:What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?
My guess is that they could still sue for those copies that were sold to the UK

It would be my opinion that if sent out from Portugal, a country allowed to sell it, then the McCanns and lawyers  cannot dictate who buys it. How could you enforce that?
You sue the publisher and get the court to order disclosure of the number of copies sent to the UK, in much the same way as the Portuguese courts ordered GA to reveal how many copies of his book he'd sold

ETA It wouldn't be difficult for a lawyer to argue that a Portuguese book published in Portugal but written in English was clearly intended for the UK market (because there's no bar to publishing in the states, Australia, New Zealand etc)
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Post  candyfloss on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:38 pm

AndyB wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Poe wrote:What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?
My guess is that they could still sue for those copies that were sold to the UK

It would be my opinion that if sent out from Portugal, a country allowed to sell it, then the McCanns and lawyers  cannot dictate who buys it. How could you enforce that?
You sue the publisher and get the court to order disclosure of the number of copies sent to the UK, in much the same way as the Portuguese courts ordered GA to reveal how many copies of his book he'd sold

ETA It wouldn't be difficult for a lawyer to argue that a Portuguese book published in Portugal but written in English was clearly intended for the UK market (because there's no bar to publishing in the states, Australia, New Zealand etc)

But surely, our lawyers can't make a Portuguese citizen disclose anything... Would Portuguese lawyers take it on, maybe as it is all money for them, but can they dictate where he sends his copies. I don't think for one minute think the McCanns would consider taking on another case with Portugal after this ruling.

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Post  Andrew on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:39 pm

At this rate the McCann's will be struggling to pay for their mobile phone bill let alone start suing publishers abroad who could translate and export copies here.

Can't see it happening at all.
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Post  Bloodhound on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:42 pm

Even if they did sue publishers in the U.K. I don't think they have a case. Wouldn't they have to prove the book libeled them? How could they prove that in the U.K. Would the publishers be allowed to use the files and the Portuguese court ruling in their defence? I don't have a clue about law but I can't see how the McCanns could prove the book was a lie.
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Post  Bloodhound on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:44 pm

Andrew wrote:At this rate the McCann's will be struggling to pay for their mobile phone bill let alone start suing publishers abroad who could translate and export copies here.

Can't see it happening at all.

I still think they have a ton more money than they are admitting. Hidden here there and everywhere, metodo 3 was only employed for that reason in my opinion.
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Post  froggy on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 3:47 pm

candyfloss wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Poe wrote:What would happen if the Portuguese publisher printed an English translation and sold it online (both in ebook and hardcopy) through a Portuguese website?
My guess is that they could still sue for those copies that were sold to the UK

It would be my opinion that if sent out from Portugal, a country allowed to sell it, then the McCanns and lawyers  cannot dictate who buys it. How could you enforce that?


That's right, part of the rules of the EU. You couldn't import something that was against criminal law, eg a firearm, but a civil action would need to be taken out against named individuals who sold the book. It cannot possible any sort of crime just to read it.

Some enterprising soul living outside UK, or possibly just England, could set up to sell the book on ebay with impunity Very Happy
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