McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

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Re:McCANNS 'NOT IN THE CLEAR' Removal of Kate and Gerry's formal suspect status doesn't mean they are innocent in disappearance of daughter Madeleine McCann,judges say.

Post  costello on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 3:41 pm

Châtelaine wrote:
costello wrote:[ [...]

Brilliant, that does sum it up well for me. A reconstruction of events was all that was needed. Why didn't anyone in the UK or Portugal for that matter insure that this was paramount to the investigation. Hmm...
***
Have you read the correspondence between PJ & McCs and friends?
I've never seen such evasive words to decline ...

Hi Chatelaine, I certainly have, and I totally agree with you. But why were they able to avoid the reconstruction of events, not only one country allowing this nonsense but two.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 3:45 pm

@ Costello.
I think by that time everybody, I mean everybody, was walking on tiptoe :-(
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  candyfloss on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 3:55 pm

costello wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
costello wrote:[ [...]

Brilliant, that does sum it up well for me. A reconstruction of events was all that was needed. Why didn't anyone in the UK or Portugal for that matter insure that this was paramount to the investigation. Hmm...
***
Have you read the correspondence between PJ & McCs and friends?
I've never seen such evasive words to decline ...

Hi Chatelaine, I certainly have, and I totally agree with you. But why were they able to avoid the reconstruction of events, not only one country allowing this nonsense but two.
Easily Costello, the McCanns as arguidos had to go back there was no choice, but the tapas 7 didn't have to go back and could not be forced, as they were not arguidos, so because they all refused, I think someone said they would maybe JW but no point as the others wouldn't then there was no point doing a reconstruction at all.  I still to this day cannot believe they refused to go  and wriggled and dived to get out of it - that is one of the most shocking things for me about this case.

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Re:McCANNS 'NOT IN THE CLEAR' Removal of Kate and Gerry's formal suspect status doesn't mean they are innocent in disappearance of daughter Madeleine McCann,judges say.

Post  costello on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 4:03 pm

Châtelaine wrote:@ Costello.
I think by that time everybody, I mean everybody, was walking on tiptoe :-(

Or severe political interference was under way at this point. Always just like to add, just my opinion.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 4:09 pm

candyfloss wrote:
costello wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
costello wrote:[ [...]

Brilliant, that does sum it up well for me. A reconstruction of events was all that was needed. Why didn't anyone in the UK or Portugal for that matter insure that this was paramount to the investigation. Hmm...
***
Have you read the correspondence between PJ & McCs and friends?
I've never seen such evasive words to decline ...

Hi Chatelaine, I certainly have, and I totally agree with you. But why were they able to avoid the reconstruction of events, not only one country allowing this nonsense but two.
Easily Costello, the McCanns as arguidos had to go back there was no choice, but the tapas 7 didn't have to go back and could not be forced, as they were not arguidos, so because they all refused, I think someone said they would maybe JW but no point as the others wouldn't then there was no point doing a reconstruction at all.  I still to this day cannot believe they refused to go  and wriggled and dived to get out of it - that is one of the most shocking things for me about this case.
***
Something went wrong here [in terms of posting a comment, which went - again - into oblivion].

So: either they had guilty knowledge, were involved, had [false] feelings of protecting friends, were advised by lawyers, were pressed on by lawyers ... etc. But, whatever, absolutely despicable. Remember also, that only Tanner & Oldfield turned up at the McCs own t.v.-show of the "truth". And one burst into tears and the other couldn't describe the room. A farce.
No wonder they're all laying low.


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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  candyfloss on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 4:24 pm

@ Chatelaine  you have quoted, but where is your post?

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Re:McCANNS 'NOT IN THE CLEAR' Removal of Kate and Gerry's formal suspect status doesn't mean they are innocent in disappearance of daughter Madeleine McCann,judges say.

Post  costello on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 4:25 pm

candyfloss wrote:
costello wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
costello wrote:[ [...]

Brilliant, that does sum it up well for me. A reconstruction of events was all that was needed. Why didn't anyone in the UK or Portugal for that matter insure that this was paramount to the investigation. Hmm...
***
Have you read the correspondence between PJ & McCs and friends?
I've never seen such evasive words to decline ...

Hi Chatelaine, I certainly have, and I totally agree with you. But why were they able to avoid the reconstruction of events, not only one country allowing this nonsense but two.
Easily Costello, the McCanns as arguidos had to go back there was no choice, but the tapas 7 didn't have to go back and could not be forced, as they were not arguidos, so because they all refused, I think someone said they would maybe JW but no point as the others wouldn't then there was no point doing a reconstruction at all.  I still to this day cannot believe they refused to go  and wriggled and dived to get out of it - that is one of the most shocking things for me about this case.

Yes I understand what you are saying Candyfloss.But surely if two arguidos are involved in a case, then all witnesses should be made to attend or help in a reconstruction. It really is the basis of trying to work out what happened and when? I seriously still have my doubts here.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 4:30 pm

candyfloss wrote:@ Chatelaine  you have quoted, but where is your post?
***
Bizarrely it's above yours.
Oh, the wonders of the internet ;-)
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  espeland on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 5:41 pm


I'm sure I'm showing my sub-Noddy level knowledge of the law and policing here, but why can't the reconstruction be done now? The PJ's original request must have been based on impossible claims (such as Jane Tanner's account of her passing Gerry when walking up the street) and they must still have the appropriate documents. Not every member of the T8 need to be present at the same time, just those that are involved in the particular incident.

Perhaps some of the documents held back by the Government still exist and can now be forwarded?

Portugal may still be friendly towards the UK, but it would be in our interests right now (with us intending to leave the EU) to show willing. I realize OG can't arrange this, but our Government can.

Right. I'll get back to Noddy. I'm hoping to progress to The Famous Five soon.

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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  chilli on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 11:52 pm

It can, but memory will have evolved by this time. Everyone tries to justify themselves to themselves and each time they do it ... and it has been 10 long years .... the truth gets eroded.

Each individual's reality is their perception of reality rather than reality itself. They are always going to paint a better picture of what happened, than would an independent observer, in order to keep the guilt at bay and to justify themselves to themselves. As time goes on, their reality will move further and further away from the 'real' reality. so interviews at this stage might not help. A reconstruction where they had to face conflicting reports might though but they would need to be challenged on their version of events or have them proven wrong.

But a skilled interviewer who knew the case backwards should still be able to elicited the truth but it takes lots of skill and lots of time. Preparing questions would take far longer than asking them and then even more time to contemplate the answers and then you would need to ask more. The answers always throw up more questions than the answers but that gets you do own to the roots. Not sure the Police would have time and resource to do this. The PJ definitely wouldn't have had this opportunity during the Rogatory interviews. They would have had to pitch their questions but then had no opportunity to come back with more and who knows what level of understanding the UK Police asking those questions on behalf of the PJ had on the nuances of the case.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  sally66 on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 2:57 am

I thought the part of the statement where the judge said "there wasn't enough legally admissible evidence" ( paraphrased) was very telling
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  chilli on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 8:00 am

Interesting article in the Mail online this morning. I can't post the link from my phone but the title is 'When will the McCann's tormentor in chief stop adding to their misery'.

Whilst the title is infuriating and the article seemingly is sympathetic to the McCann's it does put an awful lot of info out there. It draws attention to the SC's 'not proven' statement, discusses the use of the fund for legal fees and summarises the evidence against them. Martin Smith even gets a mention  affraid  affraid  so it will be more than just the McCanns who are seething this morning.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  candyfloss on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 10:07 am

Thanks AndyB -Here is the link without the google bit...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4213890/Detective-blamed-Maddie-s-parents-writes-second-book.html


When will the McCanns' tormentor in chief stop adding to their misery? The Portuguese detective whose book pointed the finger at Maddie's parents is now writing a second volume 

By Neil Tweedie for the Daily Mail
Published: 00:09, 11 February 2017  | Updated: 01:19, 11 February 2017



Goncalo Amaral is relaxing with an old friend at a brasserie in the Portuguese town of Portimao around midnight when he takes the call.
A three-year-old British girl is missing from a holiday apartment in the quiet resort of Praia da Luz, a short drive westward along the coast of the Algarve, and Amaral, a senior police detective, is being asked to issue instructions.
‘All precautions [must be] taken to preserve possible clues and elements of evidence,’ he tells the caller. ‘I demand to be informed of developments regularly.’
An inspector, and a forensics man are dispatched to Praia da Luz, and a watch put in place at Faro airport and at the border crossings between Portugal and Spain.
‘That evening, on arriving home, I see Ines, my younger daughter, who is sleeping close to my wife, Sofia,’ remembers Amaral. ‘In silence, in the dim light of the bedroom, I sit on the edge of the bed. Outside, far from her mother’s warmth, a child of the same age is lost.’
Aged 47, Goncalo Amaral is a veteran of Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria, the country’s serious crimes agency, with the rank of coordinator — equivalent to superintendent. During his quarter century on the force, this man from a working-class background in Lisbon has dealt with everything from drug trafficking to child murder. But this case will eclipse all others in notoriety — and in its impact on his life.





It is the night of May 3, 2007, and Madeleine McCann has just vanished from Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club, snatched from her bed by person or persons unknown as her younger twin siblings sleep within feet of her and while her parents, Kate, a general practitioner, and Gerry, a cardiologist, from Leicester, dine with friends at a nearby poolside tapas restaurant. For Goncalo Amaral, the mystery of Madeleine McCann — one that continues to fascinate and appal as it approaches its tenth anniversary — is no mystery at all.


Amaral alleged that Madeleine (pictured) had died in an accident in the apartment and the McCanns had faked the abduction
He made that clear in his book, Maddie: The Truth Of The Lie, written soon after he was hauled off the case in 2008 and took early retirement. He uses evidence garnered in the police investigation to question the kidnap theory and pin suspicion squarely on the McCanns.
He alleged that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment and the McCanns had faked the abduction. He was sued by Gerry and Kate McCann who told the trial of their ‘devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain’ at being accused by Amaral of hiding their daughter’s body.
Last week, after a nine-year legal battle, the McCanns finally failed in their attempt to have the book banned from sale in Portugal. They have always maintained that their aim was to stop Amaral spreading wicked and false lies which they felt hampered the search for Madeleine.
The Portuguese supreme court decision upholds the finding of a lower court last year, which overturned a previous libel win by the McCanns against Amaral when he was ordered to pay them £385,000 in damages.

Their initial victory in 2015 allowed them to block formal publication of the book, but could not stop its circulation on the internet. Now the supreme court has concluded that freedom of expression, in the shape of the Amaral book, must trump the right to protect the reputation of individuals (the McCanns).

What is perhaps worse for the McCanns, who have endured so much already, is that in its full judgment published this week the supreme court, though not a criminal law body, has signally refused to clear them of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.

The court states that the decision in July 2008 to shelve — ‘archive’ — the initial police investigation and remove the couple’s ‘arguido’ (formal suspect) status does not mean they are innocent.

 bitter resentment towards the McCanns in Portugal because of the case’s impact on tourism in the Algarve" class="blkBorder img-share"/>
There is continuing widespread and bitter resentment towards the McCanns in Portugal because of the case’s impact on tourism in the Algarve

‘The archiving of the case was determined by the fact that public prosecutors hadn’t managed to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes by the appellants (the McCanns),’ says the ruling. ‘It doesn’t therefore seem acceptable that the ruling, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be equated to proof of innocence.’

It also ruled that there were ‘serious concerns relating to the truth of the allegation that Madeleine was kidnapped’.

Now, the McCanns face a huge legal bill — as well as the agony caused by the book’s continued availability. Their feud with Amaral has become a running sore that may yet empty the much-depleted Madeleine’s Fund.

The ruling also raises questions about the impartiality of the Portuguese courts in a highly politicised case that saw prime ministers from Tony Blair onwards intervening at one level or another to assist in the investigation.

There is continuing widespread and bitter resentment towards the McCanns in Portugal because of the case’s impact on tourism in the Algarve

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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  Birdy on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 10:24 am

Joana Morais has just translated a debate with Anjos & a PJ Inspector. Can't bring it over but very interesting indeed. I am sure it has something to do with an Elite P ring-- IMO. The Govt & S Yrd will have to remove any whitewash now.
WOW things are moving quickly. bounce cheers Very Happy
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  espeland on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 11:06 am

https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/cmtv-debate-on-supreme-court-ruling-and.html

Assuming there was someone being protected, unless that person has died the need for that protection still exists and hence I can't see why OG should abandon their whitewash - if that is what they've been doing. And if there was someone being protected, GM would know his identity and the fear from the Government would be that he would spill the beans if put on trial.



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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  unreorganised on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 11:17 am


Like the CMTV special that Amaral appeared on, I wish the British press would give us something as sober and coherent about the case as this.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 11:20 am

Did I just read the DM writer a paragraph from Goncalos book?!?

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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  candyfloss on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 11:44 am

dogs don't lie wrote:Did I just read the DM writer a paragraph from Goncalos book?!?

Yes, actually quoting from the book, it looks like.   That is an excellent article, it is amazing how things are changing.

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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  bluebell on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 12:30 pm

unreorganised wrote:

Like the CMTV special that Amaral appeared on, I wish the British press would give us something as sober and coherent about the case as this.


To get this debate published in this country would be great. Fascinating stuff. Bit snipped below:

We have a case where a man was constituted as an arguido and didn't provide a statement, any man that has his child missing wouldn't care about giving statements (to the police), if my son disappeared I wouldn't care if they suspected me, they could even arrest me as long as they would find my child, it wouldn't be because they had suspicions that I would refuse to give a statement. There is one thing that we know by reading the statements of the whole group, is that they all lied, lied through their teeth, because there isn't a single statement between those 7 or 8 people that were there that night that matches with one another.[i][/i]

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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  Birdy on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 12:53 pm

Hopefully the UK press will quote parts of this debate, other countries are sure too. espeland, you seem to think it's a whitewash, i don't. SY didn't need to spend 12mil+, they could have wrapped this case up years ago at review stage IMO. I think they have been busy crossing every T & dotting every I in this multifaceted case. Hopefully the press will become braver now & not so ambiguous.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  espeland on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 1:09 pm

Birdy wrote:Hopefully the UK press will quote parts of this debate, other countries are sure too. espeland, you seem to think it's a whitewash, i don't. SY didn't need to spend 12mil+, they could have wrapped this case up years ago at review stage IMO. I think they have been busy crossing every T & dotting every I in this multifaceted case. Hopefully the press will become braver now & not so ambiguous.
Thanks for sweet birdie avatar-- reminds me, i have to go out in rain & feed the birdies now as they are all lined up on the branches waiting & making a racket.

JUSTICE FOR MADDIE

Actually I don't think it's a whitewash and agree with your comments, BUT is has always struck me as odd that TM immediately started gossiping on their return to the UK and Gordon Brown told them to shut up. And there was certainly something fishy with Leicester Polices' actions.
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Re: McCanns "not in the clear" - removal of their "formal suspect" status does not mean they are innocent, judges say

Post  Birdy on Sat 11 Feb 2017, 2:30 pm

Yes, i agree with your comments espeland BUT there has always been something very strange & fishy about the whole case from the very beginning !! Perhaps it started out as a WW & then due to the public support of Dr Amaral, they decided they had to change tactics. Anyway, here's hoping, as the rest of the world is watching.

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