The Disappearance of Nora Quoirin

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Post  Freedom on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 3:03 pm

Even allowing for the usual media inaccuracies, it is strange that there are so many inconsistencies over factual things that there should be no doubt about; particularly where Nora was sleeping - upstairs, downstairs, alone or not.

All the reports seem to be saying that Nora was found naked but, as I posted earlier, this has been denied by the Lucie Blackman Trust which has been helping the parents.

As for Mr Q not speaking at press conferences, I wonder if he is more fluent in French than English? He should be totally bilingual as he has lived here for 20 years but possibly he isn't.
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Post  canada12 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 5:12 pm

poster wrote:An interesting analysis with good photos of the property and area.

One has to concur with the author that the choice of holiday resort and accommodation hardly seems appropriate for a child with Nora's special needs. Just look at those drops and that spiral staircase for a start.

Rather as in the McCann case, the open or closed window does seem to be the proverbial 'red herring'.

https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/16/if-this-is-where-nora-quoirin-slept-the-night-she-disappeared-it-changes-everything/

I know you can't judge a book by the cover but there is something about the father's look that gives me the creeps. Why is the poor mother left to do all the talking? Why didn't he contribute?

https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/13/nora-quoirin-tcrs-assessment/

I too struggle to understand how Nora could have been sleeping upstairs with her siblings. As is pointed out, we're led to believe that Nora had trouble walking and even doing up her own buttons. How then could she have negotiated the spiral staircase up to the loft? It would have required someone climbing behind her to make sure she didn't fall. I'm not saying this is impossible - it just seems very cumbersome and you'd assume if the family had a child with a mobility disability then they'd do their advance research about where they were staying and they'd know in advance that the house had a spiral staircase and that it wasn't really an appropriate place to stay.

It's interesting that there's a bedroom on the ground floor - thanks to the diligent research of the person making that posting. Nora may well have been staying there and might have woken and gone looking for her parents and being unfamiliar with the house might have gone out through the (apparently) broken / unlatched window.

But having said that...that also now becomes a fall-back for the parents, who could now claim that's exactly what happened - she woke and wandered - in spite of what might really have happened...
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Post  Freedom on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 6:01 pm

We're told that she relied on her sister as well on her parents so I'm surprised that the two girls didn't share a room.
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Post  poster on Thu 22 Aug 2019, 10:35 pm

The whole thing is incredibly weird and incredibly suspicious.  Someone from the Trust who is/was being their spokesperson gave an interesting insight into Nora's character which I think is quite helpful. It was said that she wouldn't even go into her own garden without someone holding her hand. This does tend to suggest that Nora would not have ventured out of the property on her own, let alone wandered off into the forest. It also tends to suggest that whoever lead Nora away could have been someone she knew. Otherwise she wouldn't have gone without a struggle and presumably making a noise and being distressed?  I suppose you could argue that whoever 'abducted' her drugged her or subdued her in some way. However, they would then have had to carry her quite a long way in very rough terrain. And if toxicology tests were done, then any sedative used or other means of subduing her would surely show up in the tests?

The cause of death also sounds strange. Starvation after a week? Stress?

All very strange.
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Post  canada12 on Thu 22 Aug 2019, 10:56 pm

I don't think the results of the toxicology and DNA tests are back yet. If the results had been made public, we'd have read about them in the press. If they're not made public, I would be very suspicious.
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Post  canada12 on Thu 22 Aug 2019, 11:03 pm

Just to add to this, there are substances you can use which are very difficult to identify in toxicology tests. Insulin is one of those substances.

I agree that it would be difficult to carry Nora's body and leave it where it was found, but what if there were two people involved in the carrying? I would also wish to know just how scratched up her feet were, because if she was barefoot and wandering in the jungle for a week, I think her feet would show it.

I would also want to talk to the school in London where she was a student, to determine just how dependent or independent she was. Presumably her teachers would be able to provide accurate descriptions and statements about Nora's abilities and what she was capable of.

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Post  poster on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:52 pm

Agreed, it could have been more than one person who was involved in taking her to where she was eventually found dead, tragically.

As many others have noted, it was a strange choice of holiday destination for the family. A long flight from London into a different time-zone meaning jet- lag. The accommodation and resort were remote, surrounded by jungle and quite precipitous in terms of accommodation and terrain. The two younger siblings were still of an age where they would be quite content with a much less ambitious choice of holiday destination one would have thought and Nora we are told behaved like a much younger child due to her condition. So presumably would also have been quite content with a less ambitious destination.

There also seem to be question marks around the sleeping arrangements. On the first night of a holiday in a strange destination where everyone including children are likely to be suffering from jet-lag and possible disorientation you would think it would be imperative to make sure that the three children, and in particular Nora with her special needs, would need to be comfortable with the sleeping arrangements and to feel safe if they woke up or couldn't sleep due to jet-lag.

Why would there need to be any ambiguity around where the children were all sleeping? The parents should have been 100% clear on exactly where Nora had been sleeping given that they claim she was abducted by a person or people unknown. It's fine to be fuzzy about details if you claim not to know what happened. But they are claiming that they know what happened. Rather like the McCanns - they can only know what happened if they were there when it happened.

We have been told that Nora was so timid she would not even venture outside into the garden at home alone. If she started off sleeping in her parents' room (say) and then ended up in her siblings' room or vice versa then why not say that?

I think the Jim Gamble 'open window' sounds like the biggest red herring. Rather like the 'jemmied shutters' in the McCann case. In any event, if Nora had been abducted via an 'open window' from the villa then who was likely to be the 'abductor' seeing as the resort was in the jungle?  A local villager, for instance, is hardly likely to have been able to conceal Nora for long and in any event what would be the purpose or motive of the 'abduction'?

We are told that in the majority of cases where children disappear mysteriously the parents, family or others known to the child are responsible. This makes sense because the parents are the ones with day-to-day contact with the child.

It is interesting, perhaps, that Nora, rather like Madeleine McCann, was one of three siblings. There has been speculation that perhaps Madeleine became less wanted when the twins appeared - effectively a ready-made family of a boy and a girl (especially if there is any credence to the report that Gerry was not Madeleine's biological father). Could it be possible that Nora might have suffered the same fate?

All entirely theoretical of course and complete speculation.

(Gamble really should keep his head below the parapet....still, at least Mitchell hasn't appeared like the grim reaper on the scene....).

IMO!
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Post  Antonia on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:15 am

Congratulations poster on a stimulating contribution.

I was on holiday when Nora vanished so my access to news and the internet was limited. I tried to follow the case. I became confused about the holiday accommodation. Initially it seemed it was a 2 bedroomed cottage with the bedrooms upstairs. So I was puzzled by the parents insistence that she was taken - I couldn't see how the kidnapper got up the stairs, removed her from a shared bedroom without waking her siblings and the parents in the next room; carried a 15 year old down the stairs and then left via the window. Later I read there might be 3 bedrooms, one downstairs which makes more sense.

The holiday choice may have been the parents, a holiday they'd always wanted to try. I agree that the children might have preferred something else - like a French campsite which my children always loved. But parents pay for the holiday and they have a right to chose!

I love the comparison with the 'jemmied shutter' in the McCann case.

I've read different distances for how far Nora's body was from the cottage. Can anyone clarify that?  I don't see how she could have got very far given the difficult terrain and the darkness.

I cannot see any motive whatsoever for a kidnapping, and as they had only just arrived, there was no time for anyone to be watching the family and deciding to take Nora. And if there had been time, why pick Nora; she had a 12 year old sister.

I do think it very unlikely she would have wandered especially given how tired and disoriented all the family would have been. Which leaves me considering the unthinkable.......and I don't want to go there.
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Post  Freedom on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:34 am

If there was a kidnapper - who presumably got in through the window which could it appears be opened from the outside - why did he or she not then depart through the door rather than clambering out of the window with Nora?
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Post  Antonia on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:58 am

Freedom wrote:If there was a kidnapper - who presumably got in through the window which could it appears be opened from the outside - why did he or she not then depart through the door rather than clambering out of the window with Nora?

The parents could have locked the front door and have the key in their room or have left it down stairs where it was not immediately obvious. Carrying a sleeping 15 year old through a window (however large - and we don't know the size) would have been challenging, and a helper to pass Nora too would have been useful to say the least.
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Post  Freedom on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:23 am

If that was the case, presumably there would have been fingerprints of someone trying to open the door.
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Post  canada12 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:27 pm

There's a very good blog here:
https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/27/nora-quoirin-why-the-abduction-theory-makes-no-sense-and-why-its-time-to-talk-about-what-really-happened/

This guy has been analysing what's happened and collecting photos, etc. He has quite a collection of postings now.
Interesting that he noticed the expensive Mac laptop on the table in the police photo!
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Post  Antonia on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:47 pm

He has a mistake in his blog - he refers to a hotel when the family stayed in a cottage in the grounds of the eco park.

Coverage of the McCanns case frequently referred to Maddie being taken from a hotel room when the family stayed in a ground floor holiday apartment.
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Post  Tangled Web on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 7:38 pm

canada12 wrote:There's a very good blog here:
https://crimerocket2.com/2019/08/27/nora-quoirin-why-the-abduction-theory-makes-no-sense-and-why-its-time-to-talk-about-what-really-happened/

This guy has been analysing what's happened and collecting photos, etc. He has quite a collection of postings now.
Interesting that he noticed the expensive Mac laptop on the table in the police photo!

Links to Donegal with the waterfall photo of Nora.
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Post  poster on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:05 pm

It's hard work rearing children. It's not all roses and fabulous face-book photos. If the parents haven't sorted out their own stuff then it's especially difficult and that 'stuff' can quite likely be projected onto the children.

Raising a child with special needs I would imagine is especially challenging.  I know several couples who have children with quite serious difficulties who are now trying to get them some kind of independence. It's an uphill battle. In cases where that child is not the biological child of one or other of the couple, it's even more difficult.

I personally think that the idea that Nora was 'abducted' at such an early stage in that holiday is quite preposterous.

I also think that the McCanns' claim that Madeleine was 'abducted' by people or persons unknown is preposterous.

What makes me angry is that the cases above, and many others, imo, indicate that the most vulnerable members of our society are NOT being protected.

Jim Gamble cutting in with his views is an atrocity, as it was with the McCann case in my opinion. Isn't he supposed to be an advocate for child safety? Uh?

IMO as always.
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Post  Freedom on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 8:25 pm

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Post  canada12 on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 8:52 pm


The family's lawyer, Charles Morel, said last week he believed 'criminal involvement' could not be ruled out and it was highly improbable Nora had voluntarily disappeared.

Nora's grandfather Sylvain Quoirin has said there were still 'dark areas that need to be cleared up for the family to be able to grieve in peace'.


If those questions were still outstanding and the family truly believed that to be the case, then they really ought not to have had her body cremated. We know that there are advances being made in forensics every day. And have we heard anything about the results of the toxicology and DNA examinations?

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Post  Freedom on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 9:27 pm

I agree, this is all very strange.

I can't find anything about the results of further tests.
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Post  poster on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 11:08 pm

None of them to me seem or look especially upset. Looks like a nice little get-together with a bit of bonding around a death (a way to get people bonding when they can't bond around anything else, ever, imo) but actually I cannot see any really deep emotion here. IMO most parents on the death of their teenage child would be in shock for quite some time. I wonder what the McCanns - in deep distress - allegedly - about the alleged abduction of their daughter - felt about this display?

Could have been them, I guess, if Madeleine's body had been found? I am sure they would have put on a good display public funeral.

I wonder what Jim GAmble would have to say.
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Post  poster on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:51 pm

canada12 wrote:

The family's lawyer, Charles Morel, said last week he believed 'criminal involvement' could not be ruled out and it was highly improbable Nora had voluntarily disappeared.

Nora's grandfather Sylvain Quoirin has said there were still 'dark areas that need to be cleared up for the family to be able to grieve in peace'.


If those questions were still outstanding and the family truly believed that to be the case, then they really ought not to have had her body cremated. We know that there are advances being made in forensics every day. And have we heard anything about the results of the toxicology and DNA examinations?


Agreed. I do not believe the family would have  agreed to cremation if they felt there were still looking to find answers as to who took her away from the villa and what happened after that. In other words, if they still wanted to know who was responsible for her death. How can the family account for her having been found so far away from he villa? How do they think she got there?

The other question is why did it take so long to find her? Had she been at this location for most of the time she was missing, or was she somewhere else prior to that?
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Post  Freedom on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 11:16 pm

From memory, that area had been searched previously so she wasn't there then. It's thought she had died only two days before being found so must have been wandering around for a week.
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Post  poster on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 11:42 pm

I wonder why 'it' happened in Malaysia? As many have noted it was perhaps a curious choice of destination for a family with two young children and a teenager with special needs. Why Malaysia, I wonder?

Another lawless hinterland full of roaming paedophiles like the Algarve (if we are to believe what the McCanns seem to imply) where children are stolen from their beds at night and held in hellish liars?

Or.........

(I wonder what Jim Gamble thinks? He seems to be quite adamant that Nora was abducted so what is his theory as to why she was abducted, who abducted her and what happened to her?)

I was under the impression that when children disappear in strange circumstances the family and parents need to be ruled out as possible perpetrators of the crime, however cruel that may seem.

Could Mr Gamble please elaborate as to why he thinks that in this particular case - and indeed that of the McCanns - this basic rule does not apply?
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Post  Guinea Pig on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:46 am

I'd like to know what happened to the money that was raised in the GoFundMe appeals.
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Post  chrissie on Fri 13 Sep 2019, 7:34 pm

That's a good point Guinea Pig
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Post  unreorganised on Sat 14 Sep 2019, 10:32 am

Guinea Pig wrote:I'd like to know what happened to the money that was raised in the GoFundMe appeals.

Any idea how much it was?
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