NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

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NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  candyfloss on Wed 03 Dec 2014, 9:05 pm

So you have to stop smoking for at least 8 weeks and not be too fat to have an operation.  Is this right or wrong. What do you think??


NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Smokers and the morbidly obese in Devon will be denied routine surgery unless they quit smoking or lose weight.

Patients with a BMI of 35 or above will have to shed 5% of their weight while smokers will have to quit eight weeks before surgery.

More on link....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-30318546

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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  chirpyinsect on Wed 03 Dec 2014, 9:11 pm

candyfloss wrote:So you have to stop smoking for at least 8 weeks and not be too fat to have an operation.  Is this right or wrong. What do you think??


NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Smokers and the morbidly obese in Devon will be denied routine surgery unless they quit smoking or lose weight.

Patients with a BMI of 35 or above will have to shed 5% of their weight while smokers will have to quit eight weeks before surgery.

More on link....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-30318546

It is a tough one Candy. In one sense doctors are there to help save lives and shouldn't be playing judge and jury however people risk their own lives by smoking and having an unhealthy diet.
I suppose if it is routine ops only then they are actually helping the patient as it lessens the risk whilst on the operating table.
Glad I don't live in Devon as I could do with a few pounds off. Gave up the fags though.
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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Lioned on Wed 03 Dec 2014, 10:03 pm

Its a little ambiguous or i'm not quite getting it ?

Seems to be a deliberate attempt to manipulate the waiting lists to meet targets.In other words take fat people and smokers off the list until they behave for 8 weeks.

Maybe i got that wrong but apart from that the NHS is in a terrible mess.Can't pretend to understand how the funding works and how they have such a deficit but i have seen so many examples of inefficiency which comes down to appallingly bad management.Overpaid 'suits' that wouldnt hold down a proper job most likely.

Generally though i would say that forcing people to give up smoking and food (loose weight) in an 8 week period is likely to induce stress that could make things worse for them.

As a reformed smoker and a bmi index bordering on perfection i am well entitled to hold the high ground and jump to the front of the queue.

So if you smoke and are overweight then i have no problem in principle that you should be made to wait until you make an effort to improve your health.








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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Poppy on Wed 03 Dec 2014, 11:08 pm

Makes me flipping sick,has a 16 year old I left School on the Friday and started work the following Monday and have worked and pay'd my taxes for the last 40 years and so has my Husband.I doubt we have visited a Doctor more than 30 times between us in all those years,Some people go to the Doctors if they so much has sneeze,the NHS don't give a bugger about people like me and my Husband and neither do the Government' labour, Conservatives at the end of the day they all piss in the same pot and all sing from the same Hymn sheet,t all in my opinion of course.
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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  chirpyinsect on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 6:56 am

Lioned wrote:Its a little ambiguous or i'm not quite getting it ?

Seems to be a deliberate attempt to manipulate the waiting lists to meet targets.In other words take fat people and smokers off the list until they behave for 8 weeks.

Maybe i got that wrong but apart from that the NHS is in a terrible mess.Can't pretend to understand how the funding works and how they have such a deficit but i have seen so many examples of inefficiency which comes down to appallingly bad management.Overpaid 'suits' that wouldnt hold down a proper job most likely.

Generally though i would say that forcing people to give up smoking and food (loose weight) in an 8 week period is likely to induce stress that could make things worse for them.

As a reformed smoker and a bmi index bordering on perfection i am well entitled to hold the high ground and jump to the front of the queue.

So if you smoke and are overweight then i have no problem in principle that you should be made to wait until you make an effort to improve your health.









I reckon you have just about nailed it there Lioned. My hubby was a health care professional all his life and he is exasperated by the decline in standards he has seen over the years. It is always down to underfunding due in part to a top heavy management led ethos.
At grass roots the NHS staff deserve nothing but praise but they are struggling against a tide of enormous proportions which prevents them doing the job they would like to do.
By the way the standards of health care in Scotland are vastly superior to those in England. That is fact.
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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Guest on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 10:11 am

In NL you have to pay a monthly insurance which is pretty steep. There is no way out of this it is mandatory. I pay around 150 euros a month. This only includes certain care and medicine, you have to pay extra if you want e.g. extra physio care, (I have 12 half hours a year, more and I have to pay) lots of extra charges for more care. You are insured for emergencies but there is a yearly fee on top of the insurance which is now around 400 euros.
If you don't use the health services at all during the year you don't have to pay this 'own risk'. What I think of the system isn't fit to print.
My first visit to the GP I was informed I needed glucosamine something or other. He then told me it wasn't on prescription and would cost me about 350 euros a year. Wrote it down and told me which chemist to buy it..I thought I'd arrived in an alternative universe.

The National Health should always have been taxed imo. It wouldn't be in the mess it's in now. the PFI haven't exactly helped either. Wasn't Milburn the great mind who organised it?

I do agree that people who do not take care of their health and expect to be treated as if their condition is an act of God instead of their lifestyle may well have to wait and make an effort first. One also thinks of alcoholics who get a liver transplant and then carry on drinking.. no way!

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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Mimi on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 11:15 am

Our NHS is not free - everyone has been paying about 12% of their earnings every year of their working lives in their National Insurance Contributions which is mandatory, so it is the same as paying an insurance. Most of us have paid in far more than we`ve got out. But I`m sure people wouldn`t mind paying extra national insurance contributions if it meant our NHS was improved.

btw - there are many illnesses which cause people to put on weight, hypothyroidism for example and it has nothing to do with lifestyle or over eating.
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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Guest on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 1:29 pm

Mimi wrote:Our NHS is not free - everyone has been paying about 12% of their earnings every year of their working lives in their National Insurance Contributions which is mandatory, so it is the same as paying an insurance.  Most of us have paid in far more than we`ve got out.  But I`m sure people wouldn`t mind paying extra national insurance contributions if it meant our NHS was improved.

btw - there are many illnesses which cause people to put on weight, hypothyroidism for example and it has nothing to do with lifestyle or over eating.
Ah, but the National Insurance also covers pensions and that takes a big bite out of the proceeds. 
Whereas the  health insurance here is something you have to keep paying until you're dead and up to pension age you also pay a 'National  Insurance' for your pension on top.

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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Mimi on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 1:52 pm

Tigger wrote:
Mimi wrote:Our NHS is not free - everyone has been paying about 12% of their earnings every year of their working lives in their National Insurance Contributions which is mandatory, so it is the same as paying an insurance.  Most of us have paid in far more than we`ve got out.  But I`m sure people wouldn`t mind paying extra national insurance contributions if it meant our NHS was improved.

btw - there are many illnesses which cause people to put on weight, hypothyroidism for example and it has nothing to do with lifestyle or over eating.
Ah, but the National Insurance also covers pensions and that takes a big bite out of the proceeds. 
Whereas the  health insurance here is something you have to keep paying until you're dead and up to pension age you also pay a 'National  Insurance' for your pension on top.

Yes you`re right Tigger. What happens in the NL if someone is unemployed or a pensioner and cannot afford to pay the mandatory amount?
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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Guest on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 4:32 pm

Mimi wrote:
Tigger wrote:
Mimi wrote:Our NHS is not free - everyone has been paying about 12% of their earnings every year of their working lives in their National Insurance Contributions which is mandatory, so it is the same as paying an insurance.  Most of us have paid in far more than we`ve got out.  But I`m sure people wouldn`t mind paying extra national insurance contributions if it meant our NHS was improved.

btw - there are many illnesses which cause people to put on weight, hypothyroidism for example and it has nothing to do with lifestyle or over eating.
Ah, but the National Insurance also covers pensions and that takes a big bite out of the proceeds. 
Whereas the  health insurance here is something you have to keep paying until you're dead and up to pension age you also pay a 'National  Insurance' for your pension on top.

Yes you`re right Tigger.   What happens in the NL if someone is unemployed or a pensioner and cannot afford to pay the mandatory amount?
They get enough to live on and get help with the health insurance etc. Pensioners still pay the health insurance, this has to come out of their pension, if that is not enough, the pension is topped up but that's as good as it gets. Although pension here is much more than in UK generally.

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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  bluebell on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 5:57 pm

I have been told that in Southern Ireland one has to pay for each visit to see a GP. I was told it was about £50.

I don't know how this works for pensioners, children or the chronically sick. Or if it is just for the primary visit then following consultations are less.

Health insurance must be available mustn't it?

Please someone correct me if I have been misinformed.

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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  Thetruth on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 6:31 pm

bluebell wrote:I have been told that in Southern Ireland one has to pay for each visit to see a GP.     I was told it was about £50.
   
I don't know how this works for pensioners, children or the chronically sick.     Or if it is just for the primary visit then following consultations are less.

Health insurance must be available mustn't it?

Please someone correct me if I have been misinformed.

No knowledge of Ireland, but in France the principle is that you pay for all your health costs at the point of delivery. But your assurance will pay you back 70% and if you can buy insurance for the 30% if you wish.
If you are say self employed, you pay an insurance to the self employed assurers, as you go which covers the 70% part and eventually your retirement pension.

If you visit a GP, you pay directly across the desk the price of the consultation which is 23 euros. The doctor uses your smart card provided by your assurance, and they reimburse you 70% electronically.

Big works, eg hospitalization are cleared beforehand and you are removed from the payment loop.

Works very well indeed. There is never any doubt about who is the customer and who is the provider. The rule is that somebody has to pay the provider.

There are lots of exceptions to cover all the 'yeah but' situations you may think of.

Forgot to say, that in this situation the idea that the provider could decide who they will treat and when (ie fat smokers as in UK) would simply never arise.


Last edited by Thetruth on Thu 04 Dec 2014, 6:37 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)
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Re: NHS Devon surgery restriction for smokers and obese plan revealed

Post  bluebell on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 5:48 pm

Just read this on BBC North Devon news.

I would be very interested in the format of the "helpful public debate".
A mass of complaints I imagine.
I am very pleased that it has forced them to see sense and perform this about turn nevertheless.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-30437965

Plans to place conditions on routine surgery for smokers and the morbidly obese in Devon have been dropped.

The Northern, Eastern and Western Devon Clinical Commissioning Group (NEW Devon CCG) had proposed the plan to help cut a £14.5m deficit.

The Royal College of Surgeons, which was among the critics, said losing weight was not possible for some.

The CCG, which organises the delivery of health services, reversed the plan following feedback.

As part of cost-cutting measures announced in October, patients with a BMI of 35 or above would have had to shed 5% of their weight while smokers would have had to quit eight weeks before non-essential surgery.

line
On Thursday the CCG announced that it would not require patients to undergo weight loss or stop smoking.

A spokesman said: "We announced a series of measures to improve health outcomes in October. This produced a helpful public debate which we have followed with interest.

"We have come to the conclusion that there is already a strong public acceptance of the need for people to continue to take responsibility for their own health and wellbeing.

"We have therefore decided to further promote smoking cessation and weight loss services to improve outcomes for patients."

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