Operation Grange

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Re: Operation Grange

Post  candyfloss on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 6:40 pm

Excellent post gbwales, .

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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 6:42 pm

@gbwales,its when I read post's like that,it makes sense there can be no whitewash,thanks.

But then I think back to last summer and the landscaping,what was that all about,the PJ had searched there in the first place,was it to confirm that there really was nothing there,covering all bases?

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Re:Faith in Operation Grange.

Post  costello on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 6:44 pm

I agree great post, well explained.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  gbwales on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 6:55 pm

caricature wrote:But then I think back to last summer and the landscaping,what was that all about,the PJ had searched there in the first place,was it to confirm that there really was nothing there,covering all bases?

I do often wonder if so many actions in this vast OG project are very much done for that kind of reason - covering all bases, excluding all possible get-outs, making things utterly watertight.
I suppose that one in particular may have also served a purpose as a a distraction if indeed, as has been suggested, there were more dogs there that we didn't see. If for example they were off in either the Budens Triangle or Ribeira do Vascão whilst all eyes were on PDL....

BTW - regarding your point on why the Fraud Office aren't involved... I suppose really it's more true to say we don't know if they're involved. Certainly they weren't at the outset, but if the initial remit changes, and if SY are true to their word of not having a running commentary, and it becomes clear by definition that the Fund requires investigation, I suppose they would just get on and do it. I can only imagine that being announced on the back of main charges relating to Madeleine's disappearance (as that is central to any bogus premise upon which it might have been set up).
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Re:Faith in Operation Grange.

Post  costello on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 7:04 pm

caricature wrote:@gbwales,its when I read post's like that,it makes sense there can be no whitewash,thanks.

But then I think back to last summer and the landscaping,what was that all about,the PJ had searched there in the first place,was it to confirm that there really was nothing there,covering all bases?


Please don't shoot me down in flames here, but for some reason I think the P.J. have already uncovered the items of evidence they need, and may have had for some time. I got the feeling S.Y. were re-enacting the dig for all to see.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 7:25 pm

I don't think anyone gets shot down on here.

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Re: Operation Grange

Post  gbwales on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 7:33 pm

caricature wrote:I don't think anyone gets shot down on here.
Agreed Cool

@ costello - A good point: Of course, the central issue there would be if the PJ and SY are definitely working together, and if the 'landscaping' was an agreed stunt between the two. Or if they're not working together whether it was a publicity stunt by SY to prove (or pretend to prove) they're doing something. Or as I said, there may be a diversionary element - I suppose that could work if either SY are working with PJ or if SY are following their own route but are genuine.
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Re:Faith in operation grange.

Post  costello on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 7:36 pm

Thanks caricature, I just can't see this case being a whitewash. There has been too much going on lately and I agree a watertight case is needed. I think more now, than before, both police forces are working together to bring this case to justice.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 7:46 pm

Remember the writing on the wall in Praia de Luz at the time of the digs,something along the lines of the English police are stupid,some one was not impressed.
Could SY after all this time close it out with after exploring all avenues there just is not enough evidence at this time to bring charges against anyone.

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Re:Faith in Operation grange.

Post  costello on Mon 06 Apr 2015, 8:09 pm

gbwales wrote:
caricature wrote:I don't think anyone get's shot down on here.
Agreed Cool

@ costello - A good point: Of course, the central issue there would be if the PJ and SY are definitely working together, and if the 'landscaping' was an agreed stunt between the two. Or if they're not working together whether it was a publicity stunt by SY to prove (or pretend to prove) they're doing something. Or as I said, there may be a diversionary element - I suppose that could work if either SY are working with PJ or if SY are following their own route but are genuine.


As I mentioned before, I think the P.J. have the evidence and may have had prior to the case being shelved. I do believe that now both forces are working together (they may not have been in the past) and that S.Y. now have to be seen to be corroborating with the P.J. I think the areas were agreed upon, but I also agree the two sets of dogs were used at different locations, in order to create confusion from the media. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Ixta on Tue 07 Apr 2015, 12:53 pm

I no longer know what to think! Way too much time and money spent for it to be a whitewash. But, equally, way too much time and money spent to rediscover the wheel.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Andrew on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 8:33 am

Playing catch up as been away but some good posts on here. 

Keep it up.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 8:49 am

I wonder if the true test on whether its a whitewash will be at the very end,if and its a big if,there as been and will be no contact with the main players in all of this,Tapas gang,then it will have been a whitewash.
As of this moment there doesn't appear to have been.

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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Cristobell on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 11:02 am

I have to say that after a very long chat with Joana Morais recently, I'm not nearly as optimistic as I was that this investigation is real. Its gone on too long, and the Portuguese don't seem to have the will to prosecute anyone. For the past couple of years the PJ have been receiving nonsense requests to interview random loners and misfits from SY, that have little or no bearing on what happened on 3rd May 2007. The circus goes on.

However, if I compare this case to that of Jonbenet Ramsey, and I often do, I can see the difficulties the police would have in bringing a prosecution against Madeleine's parents. As Gerry keeps on saying, there is noooooo evidence and if they cannot prove the case in Court beyond reasonable doubt, then the whole case could collapse and the guilty would get off scot free.

What I would query however, is the noooooo evidence. The evidence of the dogs has been accepted and people have been successfully prosecuted and imprisoned without a body being found. The circumstantial evidence against the McCanns is substantial and damning. There whereabouts of all the members of the Tapas group that night are only fully corroborated by each other. It can be proven that the apartment was NOT broken into, and indeed the only fingerprints on the window, were Kates.

The statements given by the McCanns and their friends do not stand up to scrutiny, and in a court room scenario, a good prosecution lawyer could blow the 'checking system' to smithereens. Its my belief that neither the McCanns, nor their friends' evidence would stand up to cross examination - according to Gerry, whilst at the police station, he could hear Matt howling in another room while being questioned.

I tend to think now however, that had there been any intention to discover what really happened to Madeleine McCann, Scotland Yard would have 'broken' the tapas group alibis at the start, and lets face it, it would haven't taken much, rather than waste 4 years and £10m+ of public money with this 'we are on the case' extravaganza, that looks as though it is about to fizzle out.

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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 11:37 am

It was maybe a whitewash under the Old Regime (Gordon Brown's government) but I don't think it is now.

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Re:Faith in Operaration Grange.

Post  costello on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 11:49 am

Cristobell, I did find it a bit disheartening that Joana Morais seems to have thrown the towel in so speak. What I can't work out is, if the case is going nowhere, how on earth will it end. Social Media has to be attracting lots more interest on a daily basis, I just can't see anyone accepting the case to just fall away with no end result. I keep the faith that things are quietly ticking along behind the scenes, and that a positive result for Snr Amaral will up the tempo a bit.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 12:51 pm

I don't like to be pessimistic,but if Amaral wins I don't think it will have any bearing what so ever,it will be pointed out that it is only an hypotheses on his behalf,if he wins it will be only proven that his writings and DVD never harmed the McCanns or the search,SY only have to say we have found no evidence to successfully prosecute anyone and that would be it.
SY don't have to release their finding's,the PJ might well do but if SY are keeping it to themselves then the PJ can only release their findings since reopening.
I believe it will be (OG) quietly wound down with a phone line maintained in case of anything new,this news will only come about following a FOI request further down the line.
All opinion and hope I'm wrong.

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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Andrew on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 1:00 pm

I'm sure I have asked this before (I think), but did Joanna give a reason to why she threw in the towel......?

Was it an announcement as such and did she explain why?
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Mimi on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 1:30 pm

Didn`t Ironside throw in the towel as well, after speaking to someone at SY ?  She was really disheartened and more or less said it was pointless going on.

It`ll probably end the same as the Ramseys, Casey Anthony, Amanda Knox etc - i.e. they get away with it but everyone knowing forever that they are guilty
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  candyfloss on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 1:36 pm

Mimi wrote:Didn`t Ironside throw in the towel as well, after speaking to someone at SY ?  She was really disheartened and more or less said it was pointless going on.

But she didn't give any more information though.  I really wouldn't expect the police to tell a member of the public anything to do with the investigation, or what they were doing.  She probably got stock responses to any questions, which probably made her feel they were not going in the right direction or doing enough.   Police just don't hold conversations with the public as to where any investigation is going. You usually get answers like 'our enquiries are ongoing' blah blah.

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Re:Faith in Operation Grange.

Post  costello on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 1:38 pm

Andrew wrote:I'm sure I have asked this before (I think), but did Joanna give a reason to why she threw in the towel......?

Was it an announcement as such and did she explain why?


Andrew, I am sure I read one of her tweets that said she had, had enough. I think the pro's were getting to her.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Mimi on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 1:38 pm

candyfloss wrote:
Mimi wrote:Didn`t Ironside throw in the towel as well, after speaking to someone at SY ?  She was really disheartened and more or less said it was pointless going on.

But she didn't give any more information though.  I really wouldn't expect the police to tell a member of the public anything to do with the investigation, or what they were doing.  She probably got stock responses to any questions, which probably made her feel they were not going in the right direction or doing enough.   Police just don't hold conversations with the public as to where any investigation is going. You usually get answers like 'our enquiries are ongoing' blah blah.

Yes, it was odd that she didn`t say why. You`re right about police not giving info away but I got the impression she spoken to a person who accidentally gave something away. I remember she was dreadfully upset.

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Re:Faith in Operation Grange.

Post  costello on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 2:12 pm

caricature wrote:I don't like to be pessimistic,but if Amaral wins I don't think it will have any bearing what so ever,it will be pointed out that it is only an hypotheses on his behalf,if he wins it will be only proven that his writings and DVD never harmed the McCanns or the search,SY only have to say we have found no evidence to successfully prosecute anyone and that would be it.
SY don't have to release their finding's,the PJ might well do but if SY are keeping it to themselves then the PJ can only release their findings since reopening.
I believe it will be (OG) quietly wound down with a phone line maintained  in case of anything new,this news will only come about following a FOI request further down the line.
All opinion and hope I'm wrong.

caricature, I was thinking along the lines that if the outcome is favourable for Snr  Amaral ,then surely his book would  be allowed to be published in this country. I would think he could even publish it here himself if necessary. Just my thoughts, as the budding optimist.
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Scrants on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 2:20 pm

If the verdict is favourable to Snr. Amaral will that mean that his assets will be unfrozen even if the Mccann's appeal?
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Re: Operation Grange

Post  Guest on Wed 08 Apr 2015, 2:44 pm

costello wrote:
caricature wrote:I don't like to be pessimistic,but if Amaral wins I don't think it will have any bearing what so ever,it will be pointed out that it is only an hypotheses on his behalf,if he wins it will be only proven that his writings and DVD never harmed the McCanns or the search,SY only have to say we have found no evidence to successfully prosecute anyone and that would be it.
SY don't have to release their finding's,the PJ might well do but if SY are keeping it to themselves then the PJ can only release their findings since reopening.
I believe it will be (OG) quietly wound down with a phone line maintained  in case of anything new,this news will only come about following a FOI request further down the line.
All opinion and hope I'm wrong.

caricature, I was thinking along the lines that if the outcome is favourable for Snr  Amaral ,then surely his book would  be allowed to be published in this country. I would think he could even publish it here himself if necessary. Just my thoughts, as the budding optimist.

I think the book is free to be published in this country but at the moment publishers are a little reticent to publish,whether this would/will alter if Amaral is successful then we'll wait and see.

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