Poll! The Smithman e-fits

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Are these Smithman e-fit pictures the same man?

89% 89% 
[ 40 ]
4% 4% 
[ 2 ]
4% 4% 
[ 2 ]
2% 2% 
[ 1 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
 
Total Votes : 45

Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Antonia on Sat 25 Apr 2015, 7:56 pm

35 votes on our Smithman poll

14 votes on CMOMM poll.

What does this tell us about the active membership of both forums..?
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  dogs don't lie on Sat 25 Apr 2015, 8:08 pm

It tells me members here are happy and confident enough to vote without the fear of upsetting other members.
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Antonia on Sat 25 Apr 2015, 10:18 pm

Votes are of course officially confidential. But I suspect some CMOMM members suspect that this is not the case if those that run/can access the system have unethical motives.....
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Mimi on Sat 25 Apr 2015, 11:00 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:It tells me members here are happy and confident enough to vote without the fear of upsetting other members.
IMO

True flower
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Mimi on Sat 25 Apr 2015, 11:10 pm

I still think it could be 2 peoples` versions/perspectives on Smithman.

It was likely done on 2 different programmes.  It would take a lot of time sitting down with the technician going through all the different face shapes etc, during which time one of the Smiths would have been kept waiting ages.  If they had 2 programmes available, they probably did them in tandem to save the Smiths time.

Also, just because you say you couldn`t identify someone that passed you in the street in the dark, doesn`t mean you wouldn`t be able to narrow it down by a process of eliminating face shapes.  The technician could have put up loads of faces to which the Smiths would have said no, no, no.  Just imagine if a man passed you in the street - you`d remember a basic shape and hairstyle - and it would start from there.

It might even be that one of the faces was produced by a facial recognition system which is .... "a computer application for automatically identifying or verifying a person from a digital image or a video frame from a video source. One of the ways to do this is by comparing selected facial features from the image and a facial database."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_recognition_system
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Mimi on Sat 25 Apr 2015, 11:30 pm

Methods

PhotoFIT generation
Construction of the composite was originally performed by a trained artist, through drawing, sketching, or painting, in consultation with a witness or crime victim. In the 1970s[citation needed] techniques were devised for use by those less artistically skilled, employing interchangeable templates of separate facial features, such as "Photofit" in the UK, Smith & Wesson's "Identi-Kit" in the US and PortraitPad.

In the last two decades, a number of computer based facial composite systems have been introduced, amongst the most widely used systems are SketchCop FACETTE Face Design System Software, "Identi-Kit 2000", FACES, E-FIT and PortraitPad. In the U.S. the FBI maintains that hand-drawing is its preferred method for constructing a facial composite. Many other police agencies, however, use software, since suitable artistic talent is often not available.

Evolutionary systems
Until quite recently, the facial composite systems used by international police forces were exclusively based on a construction methodology in which individual facial features (eyes, nose, mouth, eyebrows, etc.) are selected one at a time from a large database and then electronically 'overlaid' to make the composite image. Such systems are often referred to as feature-based since they essentially rely on the selection of individual features in isolation. However, after a long period of research and development work conducted largely within British Universities, systems based on a rather different principle are finding increasing use by police forces.[1][2][3] These systems may be broadly described as holistic or global in that they primarily attempt to create a likeness to the suspect through an evolutionary mechanism in which a witness's response to groups of complete faces (not just features) converges towards an increasingly accurate image. Three such systems have come from academic beginnings, EFIT-V from the University of Kent;[4] EvoFIT (http://www.EvoFIT.co.uk) from the University of Stirling, the University of Central Lancashire (UCLan) and the University of Winchester;[5] and ID from the University of Cape Town, South Africa.
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Guest on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 7:07 am

iI did the Forensic psychology course of the OU and it was brilliant.

E-ft V especially. i think the course of 6 weeks or so is still available. (Free!) what it boils down to is that the brain is better at recognition than constructiin a face from bits.
Recognition is a survival trait so makes a lot of sense.
Anyone interested google Future Learn OU. There's also a good one on forensics.

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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  canada12 on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 7:44 am

It could very well be the same man. Here are the two efits side by side, with minimal manipulation - hairline and jawline adjusted, and I think I may have flipped one of the pictures - I can't remember. I posted this over on the other site some time ago. It's only the broader jawline on the other man that makes you think it's two different people. If you make the jawline the same, you can see the obvious similarities.

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Re:Poll The Smithman e-fits.

Post  costello on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 7:58 am

canada12 wrote:It could very well be the same man. Here are the two efits side by side, with minimal manipulation - hairline and jawline adjusted, and I think I may have flipped one of the pictures - I can't remember. I posted this over on the other site some time ago. It's only the broader jawline on the other man that makes you think it's two different people. If you make the jawline the same, you can see the obvious similarities.


This is a good example, I have always thought both e-fits are of the same person.
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Guest on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 8:53 am

I'm not sure what Amaral makes of the e-fit,this is from the files.

"The testimony of one of the members of the Smith family that identified Gerry McCann as being the man he saw on the night that Maddie disappeared, carrying a child in his arms as he walked towards the beach was devalued after I left the case. It is a lie that the e-fit that the British police now made public is based on the Smith family's witness statement."

The statements are from Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ coordinator who investigated the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, to Correio da Manhã. They appear following the publication of e-fits by the Scotland Yard that point one of the drawings out as being that of the main suspect over the presumed abduction of the English child, on the 3rd of May of 2007 - which they say was based on the testimony of an Irish family that was on holiday in Praia da Luz when Maddie disappeared.

"The Smith family told us what they saw that night. A man, a foreigner, of athletic build, a sunburned face, like those of tourists, who was hiding his face in order not to be seen, carrying a blonde child in his arms," Gonçalo Amaral said. "A short time later, when the McCann family 'fled' to the United Kingdom, and were welcomed by the television at the airport, a member of the Smith family called us, very upset. Gerry [Maddie's father], who was leaving the plane, was the man that Mr Smith had seen carrying a child that night," the former coordinator explained.

For Gonçalo Amaral, "there was a positive identification, which was set aside"."The McCann's hired detectives who made a portrait, a man that resembled Gerry, in order to devalue the deposition," he concluded.

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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  dogs don't lie on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 9:15 am

Ohhh, a positive identification of GM was set aside!?! TM investigators drew them up. Poor Martin Smith.
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Mimi on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 9:36 am

dogs don't lie wrote:Ohhh, a positive identification of GM was set aside!?! TM investigators drew them up. Poor Martin Smith.
IMO

Wow, blimey, gosh. I`ve missed that - it`s not from GA`s book is it?

So GA is saying the Smiths did not make the efits that emerged on Crimewatch ?

He is saying that TM made them to detract from the efit that the Smiths had done

So I wonder if the two efits produced are one that the Smiths did and the other one is what the McCanns did.
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Guest on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 9:37 am

Do I read it that there was an e-fit identification drawn up by the Smith's,but the ones shown are not them.

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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Mimi on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 9:38 am

caricature wrote:Do I read it that there was an e-fit identification drawn up by the Smith's,but the ones shown are not them.

That`s how I perceive it.

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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Guest on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 9:40 am

Mimi wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:Ohhh, a positive identification of GM was set aside!?! TM investigators drew them up. Poor Martin Smith.
IMO

Wow, blimey, gosh.  I`ve missed that - it`s not from GA`s book is it?

So GA is saying the Smiths did not make the efits that emerged on Crimewatch ?

He is saying that TM made them to detract from the efit that the Smiths had done

So I wonder if the two efits produced are one that the Smiths did and the other one is what the McCanns did.

Not from his book,its from a newspaper interview after the Crimewatch release.

Key witness identified Maddie's father Correio da Manhã

Former PJ coordinator says Irish family saw man with child

Gonçalo Amaral reveals that key deposition was devalued at the time of disappearance

By Sara G. Carrilho
21 October 2013 01h00
With thanks to Astro for translation

The McCann family
"The testimony of one of the members of the Smith family that identified Gerry McCann as being the man he saw on the night that Maddie disappeared, carrying a child in his arms as he walked towards the beach was devalued after I left the case. It is a lie that the e-fit that the British police now made public is based on the Smith family's witness statement."

The statements are from Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ coordinator who investigated the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, to Correio da Manhã. They appear following the publication of e-fits by the Scotland Yard that point one of the drawings out as being that of the main suspect over the presumed abduction of the English child, on the 3rd of May of 2007 - which they say was based on the testimony of an Irish family that was on holiday in Praia da Luz when Maddie disappeared.

"The Smith family told us what they saw that night. A man, a foreigner, of athletic build, a sunburned face, like those of tourists, who was hiding his face in order not to be seen, carrying a blonde child in his arms," Gonçalo Amaral said. "A short time later, when the McCann family 'fled' to the United Kingdom, and were welcomed by the television at the airport, a member of the Smith family called us, very upset. Gerry [Maddie's father], who was leaving the plane, was the man that Mr Smith had seen carrying a child that night," the former coordinator explained.

For Gonçalo Amaral, "there was a positive identification, which was set aside". "The McCann's hired detectives who made a portrait, a man that resembled Gerry, in order to devalue the deposition," he concluded.

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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Guest on Sun 26 Apr 2015, 9:41 am

Mimi wrote:
caricature wrote:Do I read it that there was an e-fit identification drawn up by the Smith's,but the ones shown are not them.

That`s how I perceive it.


Unless,one is by the Smiths and the other by TM,revelation moment perchance,we can see through you lot!

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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Bampots on Mon 27 Apr 2015, 10:53 pm

One of the Oakley investigators said last week: “I was absolutely stunned when I watched the programme . . . It most certainly wasn’t a new timeline and it certainly isn’t a new revelation. It is absolute nonsense to suggest either of those things . . . And those E-Fits you saw on Crimewatch are ours,” he said.

The detailed images of the face of the man seen by the Smith family were never released by the McCanns. But an artist’s impression of the man seen earlier by Tanner was widely promoted, even though the face had to be left blank because she had only seen him fleetingly and from a distance.




The Sunday Times Insight team 
27 October 2013



This is from http://onlyinamericablogging.blogspot.com/2013/10/madeleine-mccann-no-stone-unturned.html
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Mimi on Mon 27 Apr 2015, 10:57 pm

caricature wrote:
Mimi wrote:
caricature wrote:Do I read it that there was an e-fit identification drawn up by the Smith's,but the ones shown are not them.

That`s how I perceive it.


Unless,one is by the Smiths and the other by TM,revelation moment perchance,we can see through you lot!

Yes.
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  Bampots on Mon 27 Apr 2015, 11:21 pm

The piece from the Telegraph in my post above states that the images from Crimewatch "are ours" and claim they are the "detailed" images seen by the Smiths.....


The McCann fund source said the Oakley report was passed on to new private investigators after the contract ended, but that the firm’s work was considered “contaminated” by the financial dispute.

He said the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised. It was also considered necessary to threaten legal action against the authors.

“[The report] was hypercritical of the people involved . . . It just wouldn’t be conducive to the investigation to have that report publicly declared because . . . the newspapers would have been all over it. And it would have been completely distracting,” said the source.

A statement released by the Find Madeleine fund said that “all information privately gathered during the search for Madeleine has been fully acted upon where necessary” and had been passed to Scotland Yard.


The Sunday Times Insight team 
27 October 2013.    http://onlyinamericablogging.blogspot.com/2013/10/madeleine-mccann-no-stone-unturned.html
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Re: Poll! The Smithman e-fits

Post  chirpyinsect on Tue 28 Apr 2015, 8:27 am

Surely the lame excuse that it would have been too expensive to pursue both sightings is the biggest crock yet.
So a second man is seen who may have had your precious daughter in his arms. You have a direction he was going and a semi decent description of him. It matches Tannerman in a few key areas and your private investigators get them to draw up efits. You sit on the efits for a while then you eventually pass them to Leics police who sat on them for a while too.
Would you not have contacted the PJ and hollered from the roof tops that this was new evidence to reopen the case?

Here is how the Mail online reported the reasons for non disclosure.

In 2008, the McCanns used money from their charity fund to hire investigators from a firm called Oakley International, led by former MI5 surveillance officer Henri Exton, to look into the mystery – and they focused on the Smith sighting.


They produced a dossier and called for the E-fits to be published. They also suggested Madeleine could have died after wandering off.


The McCanns, who became embroiled in an unconnected financial dispute with Oakley International at around the time they received the dossier, responded by warning the detectives of legal action if they publicised their report.


A source close to the fund said the report would have been ‘completely distracting’ if it had become public.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478087/Why-Madeleine-McCann-suspect-E-fits-kept-secret-5-years.html#ixzz3YaQs2bNl
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