Kate McCann on the moment Madeleine disappeared

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Kate McCann on the moment Madeleine disappeared Empty Kate McCann on the moment Madeleine disappeared

Post  candyfloss on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 8:27 am


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Post  Guest on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 9:18 am

As with the book where she boasted of the superiority of their LOOKING AS WELL AS LISTENING CHECKING SYSTEM, Kate shows here as she does in their documentary, that despite the claims, there was no intention of LOOKING as well as listening. The look in the room came after the door slam which came after her closing the door to, when she had not so much as peeped inside the bedroom.

Add that to Gerry's statement in their documentary that the Thursday was the first time he had put his head around the door, it adds to the theory that if there was any checking it was inadequate.

WITHOUT A DOUBT, KATE MCCCANN HAS LIED IN HER CLAIMED BOOK OF TRUTH.

MY LOGIC : ONE LIE IS ENOUGH TO MISTRUST ANYTHING SAID.

CONCLUSIONS : THERE WAS NO CHECKING AND THEY WERE NEGLIGENT
                   OR  THERE WAS NO CHECKING BECAUSE THE CHILDREN WERE BEING CARED FOR BY AN ADULT.


EITHER WAY, NO CHECKING.

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Post  Cristobell on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 9:19 am

candyfloss wrote:


They really don't need to take any lie detector tests do they, lol.  That dull, monotone 'look at how sad I am' whine fools no-one, and her confusion over past and present tense is almost painful to watch as she re-tells a fictional story.  Real memories produce real emotions, we re-live the moment, and if it is traumatic, it all comes back, no matter how many times we re-tell it.  Even now as I fleetingly recall the moment I lost my dad, my mum, my best friend, my eyes well up as I type.  A mother who has lost a child doesn't dab a hankerchief at her eyes like a Jane Austin heroine (and where was the hanky btw, when I was bereaved I had to carry tissues with me everywhere), real grief isn't attractive, your face crumples, literally, tears flood from your eyes, fluids run from your nose, and from about 20 onwards, you are left with red puffy eyes that won't tolerate make up, so you don the sun glasses.  Deborah Bradley (mother of missing Lisa) does at least make an attempt at portraying real grief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asL4Seo6moI

Deborah Bradley is the name of Lisa Irwin's mother. Many thanks, have changed it Smile


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Post  chirpyinsect on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 9:33 am

Based on your disbelief in the quality of Kate's acting, may I ask you Cristobell what conclusions you draw from charades such as this one posted by Candyfloss?
Do you still believe that the parents neglected the children meaning the whole checking routine is fabricated, or do you now think they were not neglected at all but a semblance of neglect had to be manufactured in order to create an opportunity to snatch Madeleine?

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Post  Cristobell on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 11:18 am

chirpyinsect wrote:Based on your disbelief in the quality of Kate's acting, may I ask you Cristobell what conclusions you draw from charades such as this one posted by Candyfloss?
Do you still believe that the parents neglected the children meaning the whole checking routine is fabricated, or do you now think they were not neglected at all but a semblance of neglect had to be manufactured in order to create an opportunity to snatch Madeleine?


The only thing I believe with this case Chirpyinsect, is don't believe anything!

I think it is a little bit absurd for online detectives to fall out with each other over their individual theories when the only access to the case they have is via the computers in their living rooms. If Operation Grange, with EVERYTHING available to them, can't crack it, then its highly unlikely to blown open by tub thumper in Essex.

From my own experience, some middle class professionals are, shall we say, very lackadaisical when it comes to taking care of their kids. As a struggling single mum, I was paying a lovely lady called Brenda (who I interviewed and checked out) to look after my kids while I worked. Within days, my neighbours, who I'd never met, piggybacked onto my childcare arrangements and each day a 3 year old girl and a 4 year old body were delivered to my door to be fed and taken care of! I wasn't too put out as they were great playmates for my own 4 year old, but I had to draw a line, when the little boy handed me a bill from his mother for a pair a trousers he had torn the day before whilst at my house! Words were spoken, and when it was suggested they might contribute towards the costs of the childcare, the visits stopped.

But I digress. When you are trying to juggle work and kids, your greatest wish is for someone to take them off your hands for a few hours so you can have a bit of peace. If one of their friends invites them for a play date, you pack them a week's worth of clothes and keep your fingers crossed Wink Then you hit the off licence and phone all your known party animal friends gleefully shouting 'I'm free'. As these nights are temporary, short lived, and once in a blue moon, you make the most of them. I jest of course (partially) because even when you wake up with a hangover, you miss the annoying little buggers and can't wait to get them back.

Were the McCanns and their friends up to sexual shenanigans, who knows? From the very limited amount we know about them, it looks more to me as though they were playing an elaborate game of keeping up with the Joneses', or 'my husband is better than your husband, nah nah' etc. When you have achieved your ultimate goal, ie, bagged a 'trophy' husband, bought the dream home and produced the perfect 2.4 children, where do you go from there? Kate's book Madeleine positively screams 'my life is way better than yours' and it is an image they are desperate to portray every time they open their mouths. 'Our lives are happy........ but not as happy as they could be'. 'The kids are perfect, everything is perfect, everyone is jealous of us'. This image is painful to watch, it must be excruciating to live with - they can never let their guard down. But that is another topic.

Some people like to think deviant sex is at the root of everything. Its possible of course, its usually the most righteous among us who have the most to hide and brings to mind images of weeping and wailing evangelists caught with their trousers down.

Neglect from these people, for me anyway, neglect is quite believable. The callous way the group talk about the sick babies they left alone in their apartments is very telling. Rebecca almost jokes about the stinking nappies and vomiting of the various kids is dismissed as of no consequence. There is no remorse, no in retrospect, wtf were we thinking? There is no sense whatsoever that they did anything wrong, not from any of them. There is an early interview where Gerry actually says, they don't consider what they did to be irresponsible.

Many of us have been studying the forensic linguistics of this case, and have also closely followed the writings of Hobbs on how to spot lies. She has told us many times how liars go out of their way to avoid telling bare faced lies, especially to camera. Whatever gives them away in a lie detector test, also gives them away visually, through words and micro expressions, no matter how hard they try, they cannot help it, its beyond their control, its beyond anyone's control.

If Gerry and Kate, and indeed, all the Tapas group, truly [b]believed[b] they were wrong to have left the children, they wouldn't be able to defend their position so vigorously. The arguments they use to defend that particular form of childminding, were probably used when the 'collective' decision was made about what to do with the kids in the evenings. If they thought it was wrong, there would now be a sense of shame that would be impossible to hide. I mean seriously, could a regular 'mom' honestly say they left their 8 month old sick baby alone in a holiday apartment while she and her husband went out to dinner without even a tinge of regret or remorse? What kind of people are they?





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Post  chirpyinsect on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 2:32 pm

Thanks for getting back to me. I know you have upheld the belief that the parents neglected the children in the past but my question was to see if anything you have since discovered had caused you to see it differently.
I don`t believe they did neglect them though and I feel that they are able to be so casual and show no remorse because they know it isn`t true anyway.
The only way they could leave Madeleine vulnerable to an abductor was to give the world the golden nugget of neglect to beat them over the head with. While everyone was so hidebound on following this through and castigating them for their dreadful parenting skills. no one was looking beyond the stories they fed us about checking routines and vomiting babies.
I believe we should believe nothing that came out of the mouths of any of them. They cannot even get the story straight. We find that MO didn`t even describe the correct apartment and ( was it Amy T?) said the twins were not in the apartment when she arrived and that they were brought in.
There are many other factors that lead me to this belief but it is interesting to note how people see the same set of circumstances totally differently.

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Post  Thetruth on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 4:53 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:
I believe we should believe nothing that came out of the mouths of any of them.

I agree Chirps. That is the best place from which to start.


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Post  Guest on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 5:02 pm

Thetruth wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
I believe we should believe nothing that came out of the mouths of any of them.

I agree Chirps. That is the best place to start.
So do I.
I've often read that "the only fact we know is that Madeleine is missing". I'd even dispute that as being a fact. I think her parents know exactly where she is.

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Post  Guest on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 5:07 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:Thanks for getting back to me. I know you have upheld the belief that the parents neglected the children in the past but my question was to see if anything you have since discovered had caused you to see it differently.
I don`t believe they did neglect them though and I feel that they are able to be so casual and show no remorse because they know it isn`t true anyway.
The only way they could leave Madeleine vulnerable to an abductor was  to give the world the golden nugget of neglect to beat them over the head with. While everyone was so hidebound on following this through and castigating them for their dreadful parenting skills. no one was looking beyond the stories they fed us about checking routines and vomiting babies.
I believe we should believe nothing that came out of the mouths of any of them. They cannot even get the story straight. We find that MO didn`t even describe the correct apartment and ( was it Amy T?) said the twins were not in the apartment when she arrived and that they were brought in.
There are many other factors that lead me to this belief but it is interesting to note how people see the same set of circumstances totally differently.

I think it was Pennington. But if anyone comes across the quote from Gerry that they were going to take the twins back to their 'own' apartment, would be good. The twins were in fact another set of props on the stage of 5a. Imo. GA mentions iirc that the apartment does not looked lived in. Or does not look like an apartment of a family with children.

ROB and JT did ihave a baby monitor but were not allowed to say so in their early statements. After the Rothley meeting it was mentioned in thetimesonline and in the rogs the baby monitor is finally allowed to be mentioned.

So what with one thing and another, e.g. the block booking of the Tapas the PJ definitely had to believe there was neglect. Except that the successor of GA let it be known that they had evidence that all children slept in one room. This was denied by Clarrie in his own inimitable way. He said that it would be much harder to get 7 children to sleep than 1 or 2 ( I forgot the nr. Of children there but in any case his number was wrong, once child missing). Nr would be 8 with M.


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Post  Guest on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 5:39 pm

Here is the quote Tigger , from an interview with Bilton from BBC iirc. Only copied the relevant paragraph, or thought I had, but the entire thing has come over,,,, have left it as always good to read what went on in the early days.


GERRY McCANN
Speaking in August
There had been quite a few people in the apartment but not into the bedroom, that was limited to myself, Kate, I think two of our friends, the two GNR officers and I think a translator. I was certainly saying to people: "Stay out of the room." There was no sealing off of the room and should we?

Children's bedroom, Apartment 5A

The twins were still sleeping in their cots. So... you'd be trying to leave it as undisturbed as possible, and they slept very soundly until we moved them out of the cots into their own apartment which does make me wonder about whether there was any substances used to keep them asleep.

BILTON: The police didn't follow this up with tests. Meanwhile late on May 3rd the McCanns begin calling home.

SUSAN HEALY
Kate McCann's mother
I think it would be about half eleven - and I'm guessing now, I might be wrong - there was a phone call and it was Gerry on the phone, and he said it's a disaster. It's a disaster. And he was quite hysterical.

PHILOMENA McCANN
Gerry McCann's sister
He's absolutely uncontrollable. He's howling and screaming down the phone: "They've taken her, she's gone."

JOHN McCANN
Gerry McCann's brother
He was walking the streets of Praia da Luz at half past three. I think most of the search party had disbanded by then and he was still crying his eyes out.

BILTON: What was Kate like, what sort of state was she in?

SUSAN: She was distressed, obviously. She just asked me if I had the telephone number of Father Paul Seddon. Paul Seddon is a friend of theirs who is a Catholic priest who actually married Gerry and Kate and baptised Madeleine, and for some reason at that stage Kate needed to make contact with Paul. She needed I suppose the strength that comes from having faith.

JOHN: They texted a couple of times just.. you know.. pray for us. Pray for Madeleine.

BILTON: By dawn a major search of the whole resort is underway. These officers are from the GNR, the uniformed Portuguese police but it's the investigation branch, the Polícia Judiciária, or PJ's, who are now in charge of the hunt for Madeleine McCann.

MAY 5th
We would again like to appeal for any information, however small, that may lead to the safe return of Madeleine.

BILTON: First appeals are made, but what we didn't know at the time was that some Portuguese detectives are already telling Portuguese journalists that they don't believe the McCann story.

JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends. Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story." We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped. To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go.

BILTON: But that breakdown in trust worked both ways. The McCaans quickly grew impatient at the police response.

KATE: It seemed bloody slow at the time, you know, and I don't know, I mean again you've got to put it into perspective, you know, it's a quiet, sleepy place, certainly at that time of year, there's no local police, you know, so they had to come from the nearest town. The local police came out. You've got to remember we had the language barrier as well.

BILTON: Against the police advice the wider McCann family turned to the media. But within days Kate and Gerry McCann found themselves being judged by the media.

MAY 7th
KATE: Madeleine is a beautiful, bright, funny and caring little girl. She is so special. Please, please do not hurt her. Please don't scare her. Please tell us where to find her.

BILTON: It was reported that police suspicions were fuelled by the couple's behaviour, that in these early appearances Kate McCann seemed too cold, too controlled.

KATE: We need our Madeleine, Sean and Emily need Madeleine and Madeleine needs us.

PEDRO TADEU
Editor, 24 Horas'
They are criticised for having displayed a cold and calculating attitude throughout this process. You can see already after the kidnapping Kate McCann appeared on a veranda in front of the journalists crying purposefully.

MAY 8th
[Veranda picture]

And we interpreted this as a performance for the media, and this made us feel some sort of discomfort.

KATE: Please give our little girl back. "Por favor, devolva a nossa menina."

JOHN McCANN: They were getting advice. If you're too tearful you're gonna have the emotional impact but you're not going to get the message over. And yes what comes out of their mouths sounds measured, controlled, and.. you know, a nice tempo. They don't speak like that normally. That is a false situation, okay, and they had to work damned hard to get to that place. Because the number of tears before that were shed before they went out there, because I saw that. I was backstage there.

BILTON: But it's in this atmosphere that a former PJ detective goes on Portuguese television and without any corroboration accuses the McCaans of being swingers.

MAY 13th

JOSE BARRA da COSTA
Former Policia Judiciaria
There are people who guarantee that this is a couple who practice 'swinging' - i.e. sexual relationships between couples and then changing partners, and that this practice would allow in this type of...

BILTON: When you say: "there are people who say..." I'm assuming you are quoting....

DA COSTA: People who know obviously. I cannot reveal the source here because I would lose it.

BILTON: The Portuguese police publicly disowned the allegation, also denied by the McCanns. But such stories are damaging. Then within weeks at a press conference in Germany, this question to the McCanns?

JUNE 6th
How do you deal with the fact that more and more people seem to be pointing the figure at you saying the way you behave is not the way people would normally behave if their child was abducted and they seem to imply that you might have something to do with it.

KATE: To be honest I don't actually think that. It's a case.. I think that's a very small minority of people that are criticising us. You know, we are very responsible parents and we love our children so much, and I think it's only a very few people that are actually criticising us.

BILTON: That question seemed extreme at the time, but there was more and more focus on Kate and Gerry McCann. But one film crew was welcome. The resulting footage wasn't offered to Panorama but the McCanns agreed to release it to us when word of its existence leaked out.

How do you know the McCanns?

JON CORNER Independent Film Producer I know them through my wife, Michelle, who was Kate's longest friend. I mean they met each other back in primary school and stayed lifelong mates.

BILTON: John Corner is a film producer, he's also godfather to the McCann twins. The McCanns say, because he's a friend, he's invited to make a film for the launch of the YouTube channel for missing children and on August 1st he arrives on the Algarve.

CORNER: It was very low key, very relaxed and very quickly got used to us hanging around and...

BILTON: He filmed the McCanns for a week. The family have just moved to their new base, a villa on the outskirts of Luc.

CORNER: You can see the twins just playing and you can see it's a normal house, you've got toys and stuff on the floor. What's quite poignant about it is you see a father sitting on his own, in his bedroom, in a foreign country desperately looking for his daughter and seeing that quite upset me.

GERRY McCANN
Speaking in August
Looking at these, both in isolation I don't think too bad, but when you see videos or the pictures that I haven't seen for a while, the calling ones I think I've become a bit desensitised to but the ones that haven't been used as much are much more difficult to look at, and particularly video.

BILTON: When Jon Corner arrives at the villa Kate tells him about Gerry taking his sister and brother-in-law to the airport.

KATE McCANN
Speaking in August
Gerry took them, yeah, he was a bit crumbly I think. I think he was alright he got up and said: "I'm gonna go now" and then he lost it. And I got a text from Trish and it said: "Nearly choked on my full English because of that Tiny Tears husband of yours" you know, (laugh) but yeah.

BILTON: Is he big brother or little brother?

KATE: Little brother. Yeah, Gerry's the youngest, yeah.

BILTON: He's the youngest isn't he? Because the media see Gerry as this kind of emotionless warrior and he's not really, is he?

KATE: No he's not. I mean it's really harsh to say that because I mean... Gerry, he's always been a very focused person, he's enthusiastic, he's focused and he's incredibly positive which is great for me to be honest, and he's obviously he's speaking in public, not dealing with media but speaking in public, so he's able to go on and do that, and throw himself into it, and I think that's what people see and you know, people say oh how can he do that? Or how can you stand there and do that when your daughter has been taken and everything. And I mean I've been like that before, you know, when there's been other cases of kids that have been taken or killed or whatever and you think to yourself how does anyone cope with that? How could you get through another day? And then you throw it back to yourself and think how did I get up this morning? How did I get a shower? How did I get my breakfast? And something obviously gets you through it - apart from the first few days which you have total physical shutdown but something gets you through it, do you know what I mean, and I think I'm fully in that situation, you just can't say. You know, he has his lows as well, you know, for sure, and in fact probably Gerry's lowest points were often on a Saturday because we had like a family day, we'd just say right we'll try and put the work on hold as much as you can, and we'll do something with it, with the twins and then he often found that the hardest because we were on family time without Madeleine, you know, it just didn't seem right.

BILTON: Because you're their friend, people might treat these pictures with some scepticism, what difference do you think it made that you were their friend? Were you for example guiding them off camera?

JON CORNER: Not at all, no I was never guiding them off camera. And then it's not that kind of relationship with Kate and Gerry. I just let the cameras run and we burnt a lot of tape, just left the cameras run.

BILTON: There'll be plenty of people who won't buy that. This was their friend filming what they wanted seen, but their supporters would say they weren't then suspects, and if they were hiding an extraordinary secret, is it likely the couple would invite a camera team, however friendly, into their lives?

CORNER: I said to them that I think there's a possibility that Madeleine may not be the story eventually, that you may be the story.

BILTON: What did they say?

CORNER: They were quite distressed by that.

BILTON: It had not occurred to them before?

CORNER: Well it's difficult for me as a friend to be negative and to impart a sense of negativity.

BILTON: He was right to sense a change. On the day filming was due to start the police arrive at the McCann villa. As they pictures show, they would return.

CORNER: They took most of their clothing, they were taking even the wet clothes out of the washing machine. I was aware that the cuddlecat was boxed up and we were asked to leave the villa.

BILTON: The crew?

CORNER: Everybody.

BILTON: So they searched the whole villa?

CORNER: Yes.

BILTON: So what, as all this is going on, what do Kate and Gerry make of this?

CORNER: Well this is the bizarre thing Richard because the police said to Kate and Gerry: "Yeah, we're going to be coming along, we want to do some forensics." And Kate and Gerry were massively optimistic about this. You've got to remember if your daughter is missing and the police phone you and say: "We want to do some forensics, that's a straw that you hang onto. That's a moment for optimism.

BILTON: That's because the McCanns say this was a time when they were pushing for more urgency in the investigation. The Portuguese had rejected their request for the FBI to come in, but they did bring in a British forensic team with sniffer dogs. Kate McCann talks to Jon Corner as all this is going on.

KATE: We're just doing absolutely everything we can do, you know, to help find Madeleine, and the last thing we're wanting to look back and think we could have done more.

BILTON: But they've taken clothing away, they've taken a diary away, they've taken cuddlecat away. Were they not thinking things have changed here?

CORNER: No, I was. I was thinking this seems really all a bit late in the day to me.

BILTON: Let me take you back to what it was like then. I was here in Praia da Luz for BBC News. Like the rest of the media I was reporting on the 100 days since Madeleine McCann had disappeared, but things were changing. Forensic teams had found what were thought to be specs of blood in the McCann apartment. Both sniffer dogs had reportedly reacted to the scent of death in the McCann hired car and on Kate McCann's clothing. People were starting to think what had previously seemed unthinkable. And faced with all of this the McCanns agreed to talk to me.

AUGUST 9th

BILTON: Part of this inquiry is now shifting from a possible abduction to an investigation that might involve a death or murder. Were you aware of those sorts of issues?

GERRY: We're not naïve but on numerous occasions the Portuguese police have assured us that they were looking for Madeleine alive and not Madeleine being murdered, and I don't know of any information that's changed that. Kate and I strongly believe that Madeleine was alive when she was taken from the apartment. Obviously what we don't know is what happened to her afterwards, who has taken her and what the motive is, and we're best not to think that out.

KATE: And as Gerry's just said, even last week when we met with the police they said: "We are looking for a living child" and they've said that a lot so...

BILTON: What I know now but didn't know then that that was precisely the time when the McCanns first experienced a more aggressive attitude from the Portuguese police. At an informal briefing two detectives turned on Kate McCann. She was on her own. Gerry McCann wasn't with her, but her version of events was openly questioned.

JUSTINE McGUINNESS
Former McCann spokesperson
I do know afterwards she was incredibly upset and that was the start of a very difficult period and.. you know, I really felt for them actually because they went through a very tough time.

BILTON: And by now the forensic work is shaping the case. The police doubts are more serious. On Thursday 6th September Kate McCann is dropped off in Portimão, she's been called in for questioning, her sister-in-law Trish goes to support her. Justine McGuinness, the McCann publicity manager at the time is also there.

JUSTINE McGUINNESS: I have to say I was incredibly impressed because she just held her head high and walked into the police station and just kept on going, and a lot of people wouldn't have been able to have coped going through a media mob.

BILTON: As Kate McCann sits down in the interview room she recognises one of the detectives.

SUSAN HEALY
Kate McCann's mother
They'd had a meal with this guy, with his family, and the children have played together, and she talked to me about this particular police officer as being as if he was a friend, and she felt quite comforted by having this guy who spoke English as well, and he was in the interview and he didn't make eye contact with Kate at all.

BILTON: Kate McCann is at the station for 13 hours, but from inside she and Trish text out updates. Even at this point the message is being controlled.

McGUINNESS: We were a bit naughty because we did have messages coming out of the police station which we weren't supposed to...

BILTON: How did that work.. what, the text messages?

McGUINNESS: Yeah.

BILTON: And were the texts saying? Talk us through.

McGUINNESS: Sort of updates from things that were happening.

[Video: public statement to press]
I'd like to read a statement on Kate's arrival at the police station....

Knowing everybody had copy to write, had the 10 o'clock news like you did, or whatever, various different deadlines that they had. I felt that it was important just to manage people's expectations.

BILTON: She finally gets out at 1 o'clock in the morning. A lawyer tells family and friends what has been put to her by the police.

[Video: lawyer's public statement]
Kate has been listened to as a witness. The investigation will continue. Like everybody knows, because of the system of justice we can't say anymore.

McGUINNESS: I mean there was an allegation put to Kate that she'd been involved in harming her daughter, I mean a dreadful allegation to be put to any mother.

BILTON: At 3 in the morning after Kate McCann has returned to her villa, her lawyer arrives with what seems to be a deal. Plead guilty to manslaughter and escape with only 2 years in gaol. As he explains the offer, Philomena McCann is on the phone to her sister Trish.

PHILOMENA McCANN
Gerry McCann's sister
Trisha hangs out with a mobile and there I am listening to Kate screaming at the lawyer: "No! No!" and just the emotion and the disgust, her tone, everything that was being conveyed, I mean what she was saying and the anger, you could feel it.

SEPTEMBER 7th

BILTON: This was a turning point, a dramatic 48 hours. First they're named as official suspects.

[Video: Official statement to press and public]
Kate and Gerry McCann have both been today declared arguidos with no bail conditions..

BILTON: Then they decide the time has come to leave Praia da Luz to go home without Madeleine. Few are putting up yellow ribbons now. It's a case that divides people. Those who think that somehow the McCanns are involved and those who don't, including a small number of wealthy supporters who appoint a legal coordinator.

EDWARD SMETHURST
McCann legal co-ordinator
It was quite clear when Kate and Gerry came back to the UK that they were subject to an open season of abuse from the media. They'd obviously gone through the tragedy of having their daughter taken in very unfortunate circumstances, and to make matters infinitely worse, were now subject to a trial by media.

BILTON: So what exactly is the case against the McCanns? Well some of it tenuous to put it mildly and hard to disentangle from wild press speculation. It was widely reported, for example, that the body was shifted in the back of this vehicle, the Renault Scenic the McCanns hired 25 days after Madeleine disappeared. The story goes that they drove the car to Huelva in Spain on the 3rd August where they disposed of the body. According to the McCanns, these pictures show the only trip they made to Huelva.

CORNER: It's bizarre, truly bizarre. I mean we use it as a base for the crew.

BILTON: So that, effectively, is evidence, isn't it, because that is the trip to Spain when, if reports are to be believed, in the back of that vehicle is the body of Madeleine McCann.

JON CORNER
Independent Film Producer
In the back of that vehicle there's a lot of posters of Madeleine and me and my cameraman. It's quite sickening really, you know, the speculation around what was a genuine trip out to Spain to try and raise public awareness about Madeleine. This is a couple who are desperately looking for their missing daughter. The thought of them having Madeleine in the car is just obscene.

BILTON: We are told the police do remain interested in this car. One source says it's a mystery why the vehicle does so many miles when Kate and Gerry McCann have left it behind on trips across Europe. There is a new man in charge of the case. They say everything is being reassessed. The speculation and police leaks do seem much reduced. We've had access to a third briefing from a source close to the top of the Polícia Judiciária. He tells us that two very different scenarios are now being tested, one that Madeleine was abducted as her parents believe, or that she died in apartment 5A as the result of an accident and that her death was covered up, and that second theory asks serious questions of the McCanns and their friends. So let's have a closer look at some of those police suspicions. Now a senior detective has told us that the friends are everything, that there are inconsistencies in their statements, that they might be hiding something. Specifically, the police thought seems to be that with the statements as they stand, that night seems so busy it's hard to see a predatory paedophile taking the risk. Officially the PJ can't talk about this case, but close to the investigation is a PJ detective who also heads the organisation representing Portuguese detectives.

CARLOS ANJOS
Association of Police Investigators
What happened that night in the dinner, at the end of the dinner in the tapas bar and everything that happened that night, what was said between those people, it leaves us somewhat perplexed in the way, as I've been saying, since the beginning, that not all their statements match up exactly with each other. There are some things where between what one says and what the other says, they don't match up with each other.

JANE TANNER
Friend of the McCanns
Well if you ask nine people about events of the night you're probably going to get nine slightly different stories, and you're not clock watching, you're not... you know, we were having a meal, you're not...

BILTON: Jane Tanner is the only one of the group of friends who has agreed to speak to us. She denies recent reports that both she and her partner want to change their witness statements.

I heard that you've not yet spoken to the media before and yet you've been much discussed. Why have you chosen to speak now?

JANE: Well, I've not spoken because the Portuguese police told us not to talk about the case at all, and.. you know, from day one we've done everything we can to help them with the investigation. I think maybe I'm talking now because I'm being called a liar and a fantasist and all this, and I know what I saw and I think it's important that people know what I saw because I believe Madeleine was abducted.

BILTON: One reason why the police may doubt the consistency and the honesty of some of the witnesses relates to the first man to be declared arguido, Robert Murat. In July here at Portimão PJ headquarters Robert Murat came face to face with these three people: Russell O'Brien, Rachael Oldfield and Fiona Payne, all part of the McCann holiday group. Invited to read out their statements one by one, they all said they'd seen Robert Murat in and around the Ocean Club on the night Madeleine disappeared. He denied it then and he denies it now.

SALLY EVELEIGH
Robert Murat's aunt
Robert is sticking to his guns, he was not there on that night, there was not a shred of evidence against him being there on that night, so.. you know, that question definitely needs to be answered, why are they putting a finger at Robert.

BILTON: He's been told not to speak to the media but he wants his views to be heard. As I interviewed his mother and aunt he sat in on the interview.

What do you think Jenny?

JENNY MURAT
Robert Murat's mother
I just don't understand why they're lying. On May 3rd I'd been out taking the dogs out which I do every single night of my life, and I got home about 8 o'clock and Robert was already there and he was in all the evening.

BILTON: How are you so sure?

JENNY: Because we were sitting in the kitchen talking the whole evening.

BILTON: And you would have known if Robert had gone out?

JENNY: Yes, I definitely would have known if he'd gone out.

BILTON: Robert Murat was questioned for three days and he remains an arguido. Our access to police briefings points to another area of concern, Kate McCann's journal.

SUSAN HEALY
Kate McCann's mother
Kate was very distressed, obviously. Every evening people were having to kind of hold it together, you know, because as bed time came, it was another day gone and they didn't have Madeleine back, and so she needed support at that time of the night and I think it was during that time that Philomena suggested: "Kate, why don't you start to keep a journal and then when Madeleine comes back you can let Madeleine read it."

CARLOS ANJOS: Kate McCann's diary will be as important to the investigation as is all the small evidence that has been found throughout the whole course of investigation, not more, not less. By combining all of the evidence we will be able to reconstruct what happened that moment that evening.

BILTON: There were newspaper claims that Kate McCann had described Madeleine as hyperactive, but we can almost certainly dismiss these, even the Portuguese attorney general says that those claims are untrue. Nonetheless we have been told by detectives that the journal remains of interest. Now, point 3 for the police - the DNA. As it stands, the full DNA evidence that is being assessed in Birmingham is still not back in Portugal. We understand evidence has been recovered from the underside of the carpet lining in the boot of that Scenic. Fluid and hair from a corpse, not necessarily human, and a separate DNA sample that's a partial match from Madeleine and comes from a primary source. Our senior Portuguese contact has said the partial results that have been sent are inconclusive and that he doesn't expect the full set will ever be enough on its own to bring a case, a view shared by those familiar with the investigation.

CARLOS: What did come to Portugal were not conclusive results but rather served to be indicative. Also the results from some of the tests were still missing and these are once again not conclusive results but rather indicative. To be able to say with certainty that Maddy was there, or that this DNA was Maddy's the test results would have to be 99% positive. If they are not 99% certain, they can be viewed as indicative but not conclusive, and if it is not conclusive the police or the courts should not make any statements at the moment because they could be wrong.

BILTON: The McCanns' legal team has told us the results of its own tests on the car conducted by experts which reveal, they say, nothing incriminating. Our police sources say they have other evidence which the media knows nothing about, but much of what the police have said and have leaked only points to suspicion about the abduction theory. So the police say they have no alternative but to continue to investigate the chronology of the events of the night of May 3rd.

Well let's have a look at the timeline again. The police say there are inconsistencies in the McCann party's version of events. So does the alternative theory that some, or all, were involved hold any more water?

Remember, the McCanns say they picked up their children from the kids' clubs and returned with them to their apartment. At 6 Gerry McCann left for a tennis lesson. Kate McCann stayed indoors with the children, and it's claimed that David Payne looked in at 6.30 and confirmed they were okay. Gerry McCann finished tennis and joined them from 7 to 8.30. If they were solely responsible for something that happened in that flat that would leave them little more than an hour to clear up and move Madeleine's body. Now what if something happened when Gerry McCann came back to the flat at just after 9pm to check on the children as he said he did? Well that would leave him with even less time. Now what if there was a third person involved? If that's true, and some detectives think it might be, then it gets more complicated because this person would be able to move the body any time up until 10 o'clock when we know the alarm was raised. Those are the theories but the reality is we would have to accept that Kate and Gerry McCann, having just been involved in the death of their daughter, then got ready for a night out, were first at the table and then had a meal with friends as if nothing had happened.

As late as last week a senior officer was still saying that it's possible the McCanns could have masked their feelings when they were at that meal.

SUSAN HEALY: If Madeleine had an accident in Kate's presence, Kate is a doctor for goodness sake, they were on holiday with doctors, the first thing she would have done would have been to have sought help for Madeleine, you know, it's absolutely ridiculous to think that Kate would do anything else.

BILTON: In the footage provided to us by Jon Corner he revisits the apartment, for some of the time accompanied off camera by Gerry McCann. He tests how easy it would have been for an abductor to get in and out with Madeleine.

CORNER: Okay, we're sitting at the table, we're sitting at the very table and we can still see the apartment quite clearly. We've got a good line of sight.

GERRY McCANN
Speaking in August
We were looking at the back of the apartment and maybe the weak spots were at the front, and it's very... you know, a corner flat with trees overlooking it, somebody could be hiding there or watching, out of view.

CORNER: So you can see Gerry coming out the gate, and over here you can see them sitting in the tapas bar.

KATE McCANN
Speaking in August
They've been watching us over a matter of days, I'm sure, you know, they know.. you know, they must have known that Gerry had just been into the apartment and then.... you're right, there was only a small window of opportunity but.. you know..

BILTON: Let's go back to that moment. At about quarter past nine Gerry McCann says he'd just left the flat. He's still in the street talking to a friend when Jane Tanner walks past him on the other side of the road up the hill and sees what she now believes to be Madeleine, so at most a window of five minutes for someone to get in. The alternative view which Gerry McCann says was put to him by the police is that the abductor was already in the flat hiding when Gerry McCann did his check.

Jon Corner and Camera Operator speaking

Just even standing here now I think it's quite creepy because you could just be standing here just chilling out couldn't you, just...

And he could have been down there.

Do you reckon? So how long would it take you to get across there? 20 seconds?

20 seconds, 10, 15. Open the window, in out, you could be all done in under a minute.

GERRY: There was a window of opportunity and that's the regret that we'll always have, the window of opportunity to snatch a child, and I've no doubt that Madeleine was targeted and that makes us sick to the core to think that somebody was watching us and our daughter and had targeted her, and I think the true word is a predator.

CORNER: So this is the front door of the apartment and of course you're straight onto the street, see you're straight over the wall onto the street, or straight out there onto the street.

BILTON: Painfully for some, the more the couple disclose about how insecure the flat was, the less wise their decision appears to leave the children unattended.

SUSAN HEALY: Well I have to say that I'm surprised that Kate and Gerry left their children at all and I've thought about it a lot because they're such caring parents and I think - why?

GERRY: Clearly at the time we felt what we were doing was quite responsible. If we were going to be down and further away or round the corner we would never have left the kids, and with hindsight... everything with hindsight is all taken in the context of your child being abducted and if we could turn back the clock and that, it would be.. you know, we would just rewind as fast as we could completely.

KATE: I mean there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not kind of thinking to myself why did I think that was okay, you know, was I wrong in thinking that was okay? And I mean all I can say to myself is I know how much I love my children, I know I'm a responsible parent and I know that, and I've just got to keep saying that to myself really, you know.

BILTON: One possibility, and it's no more than that, is that police suspect some of the group of friends may have exaggerated the extent of their checks to make them and the McCanns appear more responsible. If true, if could have inadvertently raised suspicions of something much worse.

CARLOS ANJOS
Association of Police Investigators
They said that every half an hour they would go and look in on the children and all of them, we found in everybody's statement, some questions that suggest that actually they didn't go and see the children.

KATE: It's not about us, you know, we were bobbing back and forwards several times and I wanted to see the kids so.. you know, it's not about us. You know, I think that the problem is it's a predator basically who's been watching us, which gives you the shivers anyway, and broken into the apartment and taken Madeleine out of her bed.

BILTON: So 200 days on, where is the search for Madeleine McCann now? Well the two camps are preparing for the next stage. Though we have been briefed by the Portuguese police they can't speak on television about their view of this case. It's the same for the McCanns, but they have a substantial team working with them, and in the last week they have authorised co-operation with this programme. Briefings, that interview with Jane Tanner, a chance to push their view that Kate and Gerry McCann are innocent.

EDWARD SMETHURST
McCann legal co-ordinator
Part of the reason why we're here disclosing evidence to you today as opposed to keeping our powder dry is a recognition that there were two strands to this case, part of it is the criminal case, but part of it is the media speculation and the media perception, and we see it as incumbent upon us to portray the truth to the media and in particular to try and expunge any ill-founded theories about Gerry and Kate's involvement so that the media attention can focus back onto the abduction and therefore onto the fact that we have a missing little girl out there.

BILTON: The police say they are keeping an open mind about this, but will ask to re-interview the McCanns' friends again. The delay, we're told, is down to bureaucracy.

ANJOS: Let's say it's important for all the people who were at the Ocean Club in the group, the friends of the McCanns, including the McCanns, to tell us exactly everything that happened, everything they remember.

We've got nothing to hide, we just said what happened and I don't understand how they can say that doesn't add up because.. you know, we've just said what happened on the night.

BILTON: That has been widely reported now but also throughout this idea that you want to go back and change your story.

JANE: It's just complete lies. I mean I don't know where these stories come from. We've never been in contact with the police to say we want to change our stories.

BILTON: So you said you're prepared to answer questions.

JANE: Yeah.

BILTON: In some ways would you like to?

JANE: I'd love to, yeah, I think.. you know, I actively want to be re-interviewed. If there is a feeling that what we're saying is wrong, you know, be interviewed.. you know, and we can clarify that it's not wrong, you know, we're not making things up, it's just what happened.

BILTON: Have you been asked to return to be questioned?

JANE: No.

BILTON: Would you be prepared to?

JANE: Yes. Yeah of course we would. Yeah, and I mean if it helps to find Madeleine, be interviewed tomorrow, you know, we're obviously key witnesses.

BILTON: The McCann camp say they continue to co-operate with the police but they're doing more than that. If there is to be a breakthrough it may well come through this office, the M3 Detective Agency in Barcelona, it runs this phone number of sightings and information from the public. As part of the McCanns co-operation with this film, they've revealed to us what they believe is a new lead.

FRANCISCO MARCO
Director General, Metodo 3
Maddy was alive two days after the kidnapping. Madeleine was in a car and she was given to another person inside Portugal. We have the description of the woman and the man involved.

BILTON: We have seen no proof that this is a genuine development but they're confident of this evidence and say it's been passed to the Portuguese police.

MARCO: I'm not saying well maybe - no, no, no. We are very, very close to find the kidnapper.

BILTON: Do you beat yourself up on this? Is it something you play with in your head or...?

JANE: I do and initially I did more but I just have to think.. you know, there's no... it's the least thing you'd ever think in a million years that.. you know, a child is going to be abducted in a safe family resort. As I said before, Gerry was standing outside the apartment so I thought Madeleine had just been checked so there was absolutely no reason why I would think it was odd. You know, there was no reason why I would think it was Madeleine being taken at that point.

BILTON: More than six months on and there is still only one real fact and that is Madeleine McCann disappeared on the night of May 3rd 2007 and has not been seen since. Now potentially the month ahead is crucial. Barring any other developments the forensic evidence may force the police here in Portugal to decide once and for all if the McCanns are to face any charges. If they do, then they will have the chance to clear their name. If they don't, then Kate and Gerry McCann could face the rest of their life without their daughter but with the suspicion that they were involved in her disappearance.

Coming soon on Panorama, the Battle for Basra Palace, the unheard story of Britain's deadly struggle for Southern Iraq and the legacy we leave behind.

What are these?

SEE ALSO

The Mystery of Madeleine McCann
18 Nov 07 | Panorama

McCann friend tells of abduction
16 Nov 07 | Panorama

What we know
16 Nov 07 | Panorama












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Kate McCann on the moment Madeleine disappeared Empty The Garden Club

Post  marina on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 8:22 pm

Just spent two hours today in PDL for the first time,even went for a soft drink in the Garden Club,as the scene of crime is now called.
The thing that struck me is how close apartment 5a is to the tapas area where the players were dining that evening.
This is where the whole charade falls to pieces,at the start.
It is simply not credible that KM, having discovered her daughter missing,would leave the two other children and walk back
to the restaurant rather than screaming for help.
IMO
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Post  Châtelaine on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 8:29 pm

Right: close as the crow flies, so screaming would have been natural. However, on foot substantially longer ...
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Post  Andrew on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 8:39 pm

Nothing at all, ever, what comes out of the mouths of the Mccanns is credible imo.

All absolute bullshit imo to put it politely.
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Post  Freedom on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 10:15 pm

Marina - so it really was like dining in their back garden then!

Do you live in Portugal or are you on holiday?

Is PDL busy? I know it's early in the season though.
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Post  Andrew on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 10:30 pm

Good questions.

I have always wondered the extent of how PDL really did suffer because of the farce back in 2007.

I know it was bad but just how bad..
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Post  marina on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 10:56 pm

Freedom wrote:Marina - so it really was like dining in their back garden then!

Do you live in Portugal or are you on holiday?

Is PDL busy? I know it's early in the season though.  


No,not quite their back garden but close enough for a shout to be heard.
In football terms a thrown in away.

I was on holiday in Spain and came over to Portugal.I am still in Portugal though not in PDL.

PDL was not busy but there was people spread about the place as it was a lovely sunny day.
Kellys Bar was open, as was Paraiso restaurant on the beach .The main activity apart from the cafés on the beach promenade was the outside café at Baptistas supermarket!

PDL is a ten euro táxi ride from Lagos,which is picture postcard pretty.
PDL is rather less picturesque and though not scruffy it is not the type of place you would expect to find successful professionals from the UK spending a week or two.
That might be unfair on PDL but that is how it appeared to me.


IMO





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Post  Andrew on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 11:05 pm

Marina - what do all the locals really feel about all the cock and bull that's been said over the years...
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Post  marina on Thu 16 Apr 2015, 11:31 pm

Andrew wrote:Marina - what do all the locals really feel about all the cock and bull that's been said over the years...

Andrew,I kept my head down and only spoke in bad portuguese as like GM I have an accent!

When I was wandering around 5a and the Ocean Club a couple of neighbours who were not portuguese did have a good look at me wondering what I was up to viewing me with suspicion.

The portuguese who I came into contact with were friendly,such as the girl who served me in the "Garden Club"
and the women in the supermarket.

Good night.

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Post  Guest on Fri 17 Apr 2015, 7:29 am

marina wrote:
Freedom wrote:Marina - so it really was like dining in their back garden then!

Do you live in Portugal or are you on holiday?

Is PDL busy? I know it's early in the season though.  


No,not quite their back garden but close enough for a shout to be heard.
In football terms a thrown in away.

I was on holiday in Spain and came over to Portugal.I am still in Portugal though not in PDL.

PDL was not busy but there was people spread about the place as it was a lovely sunny day.
Kellys Bar was open, as was Paraiso restaurant on the beach .The main activity apart from the cafés on the beach promenade was the outside café at Baptistas supermarket!

PDL is a ten euro táxi ride from Lagos,which is picture postcard pretty.
PDL is rather less picturesque and though not scruffy it is not the type of place you would expect to find successful professionals from the UK spending a week or two.
That might be unfair on PDL but that is how it appeared to me.


IMO


That's interesting. i've always seen it as a sort if Butlins in Portugal. What is more surprising then is that rich people like Geraghty chose PdL over a prettier place.  Four golf courses  are close by but so would these be for Lagos.

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Post  Poe on Fri 17 Apr 2015, 9:13 am

If you pause the video and watch frame by frame 1.11 to 1.12, Kate gives a big cheesy duper's delight grin.
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Post  Guest on Fri 17 Apr 2015, 12:00 pm

Poe wrote:If you pause the video and watch frame by frame 1.11 to 1.12, Kate gives a big cheesy duper's delight grin.
Kate McCann on the moment Madeleine disappeared Captur16

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Post  Freedom on Fri 17 Apr 2015, 12:01 pm

That's a sight to frighten the horses.
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Post  Guest on Fri 17 Apr 2015, 12:11 pm

Sorry about my last post, I did not realise just how much extra had copied over. Admin please edit as deemed appropriate for the thread.
Thanks.

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Post  Andrew on Fri 17 Apr 2015, 2:37 pm

Freedom wrote:That's a sight to frighten the horses.
I thought it was a horse at first glance.
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Kate McCann on the moment Madeleine disappeared Empty pdl visit

Post  marina on Mon 20 Apr 2015, 11:23 am

Just an after thought about pdl.
I should have timed my walk from flat 5a to the steps at kellys bar via the primary school.
This distance is much shorter than I had imagined and GM could have covered it in much less than the ten minutes suggested,five at most .
He could then have returned to the tapas bar by the more direct route, past the supremarket, in a couple of minutes .
imo
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