The Grenfell Tower fire

"This is a scandal. This is one of the biggest scandals in the country - and it could have been avoided," Reg Kerr-Bell, former chairman of the Kensington and Chelsea Tenancy Management Organisation, told Daily Express.

"We felt there was a disaster waiting to happen and we were going to have a meeting with the MP so that we could put these concerns to them."

Mr Kerr-Bell said he also had concerns over the building's 2016 refurbishment, which was undertaken by a company now in liquidation.

"This refurbishment contract should never have been managed by TMO.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/london-fire-council-knew-of-tower-safety-concerns-20170615-gwrn65.html

Yes! And IMO those responsible should be brought to justice. At least that ...

I have a "big house" but not 24 levels, yet have fire-extincters everywhere. They're checked once a year and replaced or refilled, whenever necessary. It costs some money, but not much.
So why didn't they ...?

No respect for lower class?
Only interested in money/income/subsidies?
It could make me vomit ....

I could cry, really, when I think about people dying in the inferno, people rescuted but having lost loved ones, saving their children before their own, still alive but being in hospital in very bad condition and obviously many dead victims not having been found - puke & f*ck. Another rant, I know,but this really is something I have to get off my chest. Sh*t happens. But this could have been prevented!

Totally agree with you Châtelaine

The more I listened to the news, the more I cried - this horrid world - the poor suffering again to save money - how those people must have been terrified.

I see Theresa May went there and didn`t want to meet the people, just the authorities. In contrast Jeremy Corbyn wandered round and spoke to residents.

Agree Chatelaine. Cannot imagine the terror of those trapped, hoping for rescue and then the dawning realisation that they are out of reach as the fire gets closer and closer. I saw the Facebook footage of the lady on the 23rd floor last night, filmed while her flat was still secure, helping other residents and keeping cheerful. That lady remains missing.

It's beyond horror.

There is clear evidence of corporate manslaughter already, and already the protective wagons are forming a circle. Unofficial reports put the death total in the hundreds, others are saying the figure will never be revealed because of the risk of rioting in the streets. Unlike in the case of Kate McCann, the feelings on the streets are running so high this may happen.

Simon Cowell‏Verified account @SimonCowell · 18m18 minutes ago

We hope to confirm a record tomorrow which will raise some money for the many people affected by this tragedy. Making calls tonight.

Dee Coy wrote:Agree Chatelaine. Cannot imagine the terror of those trapped, hoping for rescue and then the dawning realisation that they are out of reach as the fire gets closer and closer. I saw the Facebook footage of the lady on the 23rd floor last night, filmed while her flat was still secure, helping other residents and keeping cheerful. That lady remains missing.

It's beyond horror.

There is clear evidence of corporate manslaughter already, and already the protective wagons are forming a circle. Unofficial reports put the death total in the hundreds, others are saying the figure will never be revealed because of the risk of rioting in the streets. Unlike in the case of Kate McCann, the feelings on the streets are running so high this may happen.

Agreed. The death toll will be in the hundreds imo.

When I was in the area on Wednesday the fire crew members were so down-beat, avoided all eye-contact.....what had happened was right out of anything they had ever experienced I would imagine. How awful to not be able to save all those people when that is your job. I don't believe they were negligent but I do believe that they felt they had some time on their hands to organise a proper evacuation of the block. They didn't because, imo, the external cladding caught fire very quickly - presumably from the blaze in an apartment kitchen - and they had no reason to believe that an inferno would happen so quickly.

Awful.

But it would appear that there is a dysfunctional organization running within the borough plus the building contractors and estate management - highly toxic. Driven by greed, lack of empathy and quite honestly a sadistic attitude.

Disgusting. Totally disgusting.

Châtelaine wrote:Yes! And IMO those responsible should be brought to justice. At least that ...

I have a "big house" but not 24 levels, yet have fire-extincters  everywhere. They're checked once a year and replaced or refilled, whenever necessary. It costs some money, but not much.
So why didn't they ...?

No respect for lower class?
Only interested in money/income/subsidies?
It could make me vomit ....

I could cry, really, when I think about people dying in the inferno, people rescuted but having lost loved ones, saving their children before their own, still alive but being in hospital in very bad condition and obviously many dead victims not having been found - puke & f*ck. Another rant, I know,but this really is something I have to get off my chest. Sh*t happens. But this could have been prevented!

Yes, it makes me cry too....awful.....to throw your baby out of a window.....

And this in one of the wealthiest boroughs in London - maybe a place where property is the most expensive in the world - ridiculous, pathetic.....

Latest update here from Kensington & Chelsea Council.

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/newsroom/all-council-statements/grenfell-tower-latest

Theresa May is now feeling the wrath of the nation rather severely. I have to say though the media is rather hyping it all up and now showing her in a bad light, and suddenly Jeremy Corbyn can do no wrong. A week is a long time in politics.

.... its the way out of Brexit!!

I thought i should just add....my heart goes out to those families....and whatever caused the fire.... others are now using it to their advantage Mays toast...

More about the pending single to aid the victims.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/liam-payne-and-the-who-to-lead-grenfell-tower-charity-single/ar-BBCMvvu?li=BBoPJKU&ocid=mailsignout#image=BBCEjsT|5

Bampots wrote:I thought i should just add....my heart goes out to those families....and whatever caused the fire.... others are now using it to their advantage Mays toast...

I agree Bampots, this is a terrible tragedy and if it turns out that cosmetic concerns were prioritised over safety then that will be a scandal. That said, there is some truly awful political opportunism taking place. I saw one woman carrying a placard saying, "First you bombed us and then you burned us alive". Conspiracy theories are being spread that the number of deaths is being covered up and worse, even though it's not yet safe to enter the building. I just wish everyone would calm down and stop the name calling because if they don't, the next thing will be riots.

What's_up_doc? wrote:

Bampots wrote:I thought i should just add....my heart goes out to those families....and whatever caused the fire.... others are now using it to their advantage Mays toast...

I agree Bampots, this is a terrible tragedy and if it turns out that cosmetic concerns were prioritised over safety then that will be a scandal. That said, there is some truly awful political opportunism taking place. I saw one woman carrying a placard saying, "First you bombed us and then you burned us alive". Conspiracy theories are being spread that the number of deaths is being covered up and worse, even though it's not yet safe to enter the building. I just wish everyone would calm down and stop the name calling because if they don't, the next thing will be riots.

.

I think they are drip-feeding out the number of deaths over a period of time because the figures are so shockingly high and because it is on public record that residents have been vocal about fire safety hazards for many years and their complaints have been ignored and their concerns not taken seriously.

In other words, it is a huge scandal and there is damage-limitation going on. Probably quite rightly as the last thing we need is huge riots in the streets. The very least Teresa May could do was to order a public enquiry and this will hopefully lead to changes in legislation and building safety.

(Didn't the McCanns want a public enquiry into their case.....?     The arrogance of the gruesome twosome...)

I think there is no doubt that there is negligence here at the very least. There is a long record of complaints by tenants and their fears that fire regulations were not effective has been tragically demonstrated. It would also appear from some of the news stories that it would only have cost a few thousand pounds more to have used non-inflammable cladding. Talk about penny pinching. Quite possibly for the sake of just a few thousand pounds at least a hundred people have perished in terrible circumstances (I think it will be more).

Incredible that their concerns were not taken seriously, imo. I think it demonstrates a seriously dysfunctional management system and the fat cats at the top of Kensington and Chelsea town hall I think must be squirming into their sugar-puffs or possibly organic granola. Not to mention the building contractors who were responsible for the work. Surely the building contractors also have a duty of care?

I would have thought that in a tower block of this size there should be designated people within the block who are trained in fire safety (a bit like having trained first-aiders in an office) who are trained to use fire equipment such a fire extinguishers and fire blankets. Plus trained in basic evacuation procedures. There could be one or two on each floor and it could be their role to warn neighbours on that particular floor plus co-ordinate with fire rescue teams. Plus also carry out fire drills every so often so everyone knows where the fire exit is and how to get there even if the lights have gone out and there is smoke.

It would seem that most of the floors had six flats - four two-bedroom flats and two one-bedroom flats. That would mean very approximately 20 people per floor.

Also, to not have an alarm system that wakes people up is just so negligent. The fire alarms should be tested regularly and upgraded if they are found to be inadequate. Again, this is very basic stuff and would cost very little. Individual flats and houses have fire safety equipment such as alarms/fire hydrants/fire blankets (even sprinkler systems in some modern ones) so why on earth would you not have these in a tower block where the risk of a fire could affect not just one family but hundreds of families? Surely the flats on the higher floors where it is known that fire hoses and ladders cannot get up to should have additional safety equipment/procedures. For instance sprinklers from the roof/evacuation from roof procedures?

It's negligence, pure and simple. Basic procedures were not followed. And it's really unfair on the fire crews too because as has been so tragically demonstrated they simply cannot evacuate hundreds of people at the same time from a towering inferno when the scene is in total chaos (I remember that film so well from my youth - it was shocking). The firemen probably couldn't even find the front doors of the apartments with all the smoke.

IMO this tragic incident has come at a particularly poignant time in history and however much one might want to take the politics out of it the fact is that politics is part of it. The perfectly justified fears of the residents of the block have been ignored by those whose responsibility it is to ensure their safety. Why would this be? One can only postulate and speculate that it is because they were council tenants and the powers that be felt they could get away with trivializing and minimizing their concerns. A culture must have taken hold of complacency at the very best and downright criminal negligence at worst.

The loss of human life involved is of course incalculable. But who will ultimately pick up the bill for all this apart from the poor families and relatives involved?  The good old tax payer of course. Still, hopefully some good changes will come out of it but the human cost is just tragic and unacceptable.

If there is rioting in the streets it is understandable. And despite what anyone says this is a political issue because the Conservatives had very little in their manifesto that was appealing to the average person in this country - particularly the average young person. If there is a lack of public confidence in them, they only have themselves to blame. Teresa May was arrogant in holding a general election  - she and her minions ignored the fact that her party made no attempt, imo, to appeal to the average person in the country. Most people are not hedge fund managers or executives in trillion  dollar investment companies.

IMO of course.

ETA: I have voted for pretty much every party during my lifetime so I am very open-minded about politics. But it strikes me that without Brexit the Tories would not have gained control because, imo, political rot set in with 'new Labour' Blair. Yes, I voted for him naively. He was one of the worst politicians ever, imo, and Cameron wasn't much better.

Rant over! Phew...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-philip-may-amazon-starbucks-google-capital-group-philip-morris-a7133231.html

You always make your argument fairly poster but I fear some people are not as reasonable! Some of the demands made by the demonstrators yesterday, for example 'To release funds immediately' are just not practicable. My understanding is that all those affected have been given temporary accommodation, cash and special arrangements are being made to allow people to access their own bank accounts without ID. There has been a pledge to re-house residents in the borough, a five million pound relief fund has been granted and millions have been raised by the public. I do think there has been serious wrong doing here and it appears that the residents were ignored, which is appalling. My problem is that angry protesters appeared to mobilise every quickly and their motives are dubious. Some of the slogans, 'Tory Scum!' 'Blood on Tory hands!' are thoroughly unreasonable - because it appears successive governments and councils of various complexions have been high handed IMO. We need to wait  and see but all I will say is it's very easy for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, a man who has never held office, to take the moral high ground when in reality, if he comes to power he will have to start making some unpopular decisions, unless he wants anarchy. He reminds me of Nicola Sturgeon and the problem is, if you promise theatre earth and don't deliver, people soon become disenchanted.

That is an excellent, well thought out post @ poster. I have nothing to add.

Regarding the anger and demonstrations that are occurring, imoo that is quite normal after such a tragedy and dreadful loss.
One naturally feels such anger after the initial trauma wears off and of course 'someone' must be to blame, this anger has to go somewhere.
Unfortunately with such a massive loss of life there are many loved ones who want and need answers understandably, and together they are able to demonstrate and make their voices heard. I expected this reaction.
The Prime Minister has been unable to reach out to people, reminds me of Bush and the Katrina floods - he kept away because he lacked empathy and waited for his speech writers to tell him what to say, quite unable to communicate himself because he was so detached. Seems to me Theresa May is very similar, and perhaps this is her 'Katrina'. London and Manchester have suffered terribly recently, and it is normal for people to turn to their elected representatives for help, understanding and action.
All just my opinion of course.

Mustafa al-Mansur, who organised yesterday's protest is a political activist and former spokesperson for the notorious Finsbury Park Mosque. Ten years ago he was arrested on suspicion of terrorism but was released without charge. He said he felt compelled to take action yesterday because he felt the victims had been let down by those in power. He claims that his friend who died in the tragedy live-broadcasted her ordeal until her phone died. I'm not sure who would watch such horror unfold but his group  put it on WhatsApp. He claims his friend left her apartment but was told to go back inside by the police. He also claimed the violence at yesterday's protest was caused by the police who 'stormed in' disrupting a peaceful protest. Is this the sort of person we want taking centre stage after a national tragedy?

Two stories on the front page having a go at Theresa May.  Only given 10 days and when our Queen is chief consoler you know PM is lost.

What's_up_doc? wrote:Mustafa al-Mansur, who organised yesterday's protest is a political activist and former spokesperson for the notorious Finsbury Park Mosque. Ten years ago he was arrested on suspicion of terrorism but was released without charge. He said he felt compelled to take action yesterday because he felt the victims had been let down by those in power. He claims that his friend who died in the tragedy live-broadcasted her ordeal until her phone died. I'm not sure who would watch such horror unfold but his group  put it on WhatsApp. He claims his friend left her apartment but was told to go back inside by the police. He also claimed the violence at yesterday's protest was caused by the police who 'stormed in' disrupting a peaceful protest. Is this the sort of person we want taking centre stage after a national tragedy?

I read the claims made about him in the Telegraph today. It may or may not be true that his fingerprints were found on a book (I think?) about how to create a terrorist bomb. (I think that was the gist of the story). The minute I read the story it screamed out to me 'desperate attempt to sling mud in another direction.'

It sounds to me like incredibly flimsy 'evidence'. It might be the kind of 'evidence' you might produce it you wanted to discredit someone who you felt might be a powerful influence.

What has happened is a disaster of monumental proportions. It is not just fingerprints on a book it is a hundred (at least) dead people and despite what anyone says there is a catalogue of complaints from tenants going back YEARS. And the complaints sound quite reasonable to me.

I think it is to be expected that there will be a counter-attack and that there will probably be an attempt to stick dirt onto those who are trying to support the victims in all this.

To my mind a hundred at least dead people in a fire in a block of flats in one of the most expensive parts of the world is a massive criminal offence whereas alleged fingerprints on a book is - well, just alleged fingerprints on a book.

You could also argue, imo, that the negligence that lead to the loss of lives in this block of flats is also an act of 'terror' - those people would have been terrified and they had been vocal about their concerns for YEARS....

I absolutely agree, poster that this is a dreadful tragedy and if it is found that there has been incompetence, or neglect - or if safety concerns were ignored then this needs to be exposed.  That said, people exploiting tragedy for their own political agendas are causing greater division and are not helping. As I said in my first post on this subject, I saw a placard which read 'First you bombed us now you burn us alive.' If an angry white make had carried a placard blaming Muslims in general for the recent terrorist attacks there would have been universal condemnation and outrage - and quite rightly so because division is not helping anyone. The far left are as dangerous as the far right and there is clear evidence that the far left are trying to hijack genuine community anger and turn this into civil unrest, IMO. Where I live we have very good, moderate Mosques, infact the Iman at our largest Mosque is the man who invited BNP protesters who were demonstrating outside the Mosque inside for tea.  We need people like that - not people who are feeling division and spreading conspiracy theories. I fear this tragedy is going to become like the twins towers,which Islamist extremists quickly spread conspiracy theories about, blaming it on Jews. Already, people are saying on social media that these people were not rescued because they were largely Muslim. The placard I saw affirms that narrative, that some people believe this is part of a western conspiracy
Finally, I just want to say that the stories of the individuals and families have been lost in all this. The deeply sad stories of people who came here for a better life which have ended so cruelly. I've heard more about cladding than I've heard about them and the press have been so busy finger pointing, it's as if the victims are of secondary importance to let's see who we can blame. Can you imagine what would happen if the media took the same approach to terrorist attacks, desperately looking for someone to blame for radicalising these young men, finger pointing at those who let them return from Syria? If course they wouldn't do This because they know it would be irresponsible. This did not happen after the terrorist attacks, the mood was sombre and the focus was very much in the victims and I think we saw ourselves at our best, whereas this tragedy has just brought out the worst in people.

What's_up_doc? wrote:Can you imagine what would happen if the media took the same approach to terrorist attacks, desperately looking for someone to blame for radicalising these young men, finger pointing at those who let them return from Syria? If course they wouldn't do This because they know it would be irresponsible.

That's exactly what happened! E.g. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3081587/British-terror-suspects-numbering-700-travelled-Syria-half-returned.html