Re: CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007

Andrew Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:07 am

Yes I echo both Chirpy's and HKP's thoughts.

Been away for the weekend and it's been a struggle trying to keep up. Literally with all the techie jargon that I can't make head nor tail of.

Fascinating regardless and brilliant work to all that have contributed.

Keep it up as I'm sure there will be a few more twists and turns in this related saga.

Back to finger painting as I am way out of my depth on this subject.

dogs don't lie Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:34 am

Well, I ain't got a clue! I read every single word, trying to understand, but I'm a numpty cause I still haven't a clue! But wow to all who contribute, well done.

froggy Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:44 am

chirpyinsect wrote:May I just say we owe a huge debt to Resistor and WLBTS and also the other people who have dedicated hours to this. HKP, Andyb etc. Also those who have unearthed useful info to help the cause.
Ok so the 2 main contributors have opposing views but no one can deny their motive is to prove this one way or the other.
Huge well done.
Resistor, I understand your frustration. When one is certain of something one can become passionate, often to the detriment of normal life. I hope you take a wee break then come back refreshed.
Fwiw, I am of the same opinion as you without the impressive knowledge. It is just all too convenient to blame a glitch on this particular instance.
If something smells like bs it's usually bs.

Is that WLBTS' position? I thought he was arguing that it was just all a glitch.

Apologies if I have totally misunderstood. Embarassed

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:45 am

Following on from the 31 July comment from Chris Butler:- In a later mail he claims that it is a timestamp error and the pages have been removed, also they will point to the next available archive date (to the 30/04) and it now points to 13/05. In the second mail he is claiming McCann. htm was archived (for the first time?) on 31 July. No idea how he works this lot out!

**Freedom** Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:47 am

Froggy, that is my take on it too but, like Andrew, finger painting is easier for me.

Chirpy does say that "the 2 main contributors have opposing views" - meaning Resistor and WLBTS.

chirpyinsect Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:54 am

froggy wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:May I just say we owe a huge debt to Resistor and WLBTS and also the other people who have dedicated hours to this. HKP, Andyb etc. Also those who have unearthed useful info to help the cause.
Ok so the 2 main contributors have opposing views but no one can deny their motive is to prove this one way or the other.
Huge well done.
Resistor, I understand your frustration. When one is certain of something one can become passionate, often to the detriment of normal life. I hope you take a wee break then come back refreshed.
Fwiw, I am of the same opinion as you without the impressive knowledge. It is just all too convenient to blame a glitch on this particular instance.
If something smells like bs it's usually bs.

Is that WLBTS' position? I thought he was arguing that it was just all a glitch.

Apologies if I have totally misunderstood.

Froggy, I am acknowledging the work of both of the main contributors because I haven't a clue which one is correct and neither do most of us. No matter what happens they have each worked so hard even though their opinions differ.
My personal feeling is that it isn't a glitch but WLBTS believes that it is. He is entitled to make his thoughts known and it doesn't make either of them right yet. One of them is though.

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:00 am

It's also true to say that "both main contributors" - in fact ALL of the contributors - want the same thing at the end of the day, that is, an honest explanation and the truth of the matter. So it's not even as if it's a competition or anything.

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:35 am

Hongkong Phooey wrote:Following on from the 31 July comment from Chris Butler:- In a later mail he claims that it is a timestamp error and the pages have been removed, also they will point to the next available archive date (to the 30/04) and it now points to 13/05. In the second mail he is claiming McCann. htm was archived (for the first time?) on 31 July. No idea how he works this lot out!

But it is not a "timestamp" error. It is an indexing error! If we are going to examine this properly, let's at least try and get the terminology correct. My late sister - who worked with computers all the time, and should have known better - used to keep calling the computer case a "database". It drove me up the wall and we argued about it frequently. Then one day she snapped back, "of course that's the database, it's the base that the screen sits on, what else would it be called." I just agreed after that, it made life easier. I don't think this Chris Butler, the office manager, correctly understands the terminology he is trying to use, either.

chirpyinsect Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:42 am

Daft question of the day.

If there was a capture made on 30apr of CEOP website which had various links to things like index, latest news, wanted etc and according to the boss man the captures are of every page within that site on that particular date and time, then how come the capture of 30/4 now reverts to the nearest date but not all pages go to the same date.
ie mccann.html goes to 13 May, wanted goes to 27 May? I would have thought pulling the "folder" that has all those sub sections with the same capture details would still be in the same "folder" and therefore pop up again on the nearest date 13 May.

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:45 am

Good point Chirpy - if the timestamp IS wrong, and all the pages timestamped as 30 April should have been an entirely different time and date, say 21 May - then you would expect to see a new folder for 21 May, with all the pages in it, not the pages all redirecting to completely different places.

Bubblewrapped Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:45 am

My mother knows nothing about computers. Yesterday she visited us and I was on my laptop. A site asked me for a password and I didn't know what a special character meant as part of the password. I became very frustrated. My mum asked whats wrong to which I replied this site is asking for an effing special character as part of the password. She replied....
Tarzan ? Laughing

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:47 am

Resistor wrote:
Hongkong Phooey wrote:Following on from the 31 July comment from Chris Butler:- In a later mail he claims that it is a timestamp error and the pages have been removed, also they will point to the next available archive date (to the 30/04) and it now points to 13/05. In the second mail he is claiming McCann. htm was archived (for the first time?) on 31 July. No idea how he works this lot out!

But it is not a "timestamp" error. It is an indexing error! If we are going to examine this properly, let's at least try and get the terminology correct. My late sister - who worked with computers all the time, and should have known better - used to keep calling the computer case a "database". It drove me up the wall and we argued about it frequently. Then one day she snapped back, "of course that's the database, it's the base that the screen sits on, what else would it be called." I just agreed after that, it made life easier. I don't think this Chris Butler, the office manager, correctly understands the terminology he is trying to use, either.

Here's a link to his mail
http://1.1.1.1/bmi/i18.servimg.com/u/f18/19/25/41/85/email_11.jpg

http://1.1.1.1/bmi/i18.servimg.com/u/f18/19/25/41/85/waybac13.jpg

chirpyinsect Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:51 am

Resistor wrote:Good point Chirpy - if the timestamp IS wrong, and all the pages timestamped as 30 April should have been an entirely different time and date, say 21 May - then you would expect to see a new folder for 21 May, with all the pages in it, not the pages all redirecting to completely different places.

It gets weirder. Url www.ceop.gov.uk/wanted calendar shows a capture on 30apr at 11.58.03. Click on on it and it jumps to the next date circled 27 May. But a second after it shows a page with the url www.crimestoppers-uk.org/ceop/ dated 29 May.

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:53 am

chirpyinsect wrote:Daft question of the day.

If there was a capture made on 30apr of CEOP website which had various links to things like index, latest news, wanted etc and according to the boss man the captures are of every page within that site on that particular date and time, then how come the capture of 30/4 now reverts to the nearest date but not all pages go to the same date.
ie mccann.html goes to 13 May, wanted goes to 27 May? I would have thought pulling the "folder" that has all those sub sections with the same capture details would still be in the same "folder" and therefore pop up again on the nearest date 13 May.

They are now claiming that there was no 'capture' of McCann htm on 30/04 and it will eventually have a July date

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:54 am

chirpyinsect wrote:
Resistor wrote:Good point Chirpy - if the timestamp IS wrong, and all the pages timestamped as 30 April should have been an entirely different time and date, say 21 May - then you would expect to see a new folder for 21 May, with all the pages in it, not the pages all redirecting to completely different places.
It gets weirder. Url www.ceop.gov.uk/wanted calendar shows a capture on 30apr at 11.58.03. Click on on it and it jumps to the next date circled 27 May. But a second after it shows a page with the url www.crimestoppers-uk.org/ceop/ dated 29 May.

It's no good looking now Chirpy it's well mucked up!

froggy Mon 22 Jun 2015, 11:57 am

Can anyone access the back-up sites mentioned earlier on this thread - or will they have been altered by now as well ?

chirpyinsect Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:00 pm

Hongkong Phooey wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
Resistor wrote:Good point Chirpy - if the timestamp IS wrong, and all the pages timestamped as 30 April should have been an entirely different time and date, say 21 May - then you would expect to see a new folder for 21 May, with all the pages in it, not the pages all redirecting to completely different places.
It gets weirder. Url www.ceop.gov.uk/wanted calendar shows a capture on 30apr at 11.58.03. Click on on it and it jumps to the next date circled 27 May. But a second after it shows a page with the url www.crimestoppers-uk.org/ceop/ dated 29 May.
It's no good looking now Chirpy it's well mucked up!

Exactly. But logic would say ok we have an error. This whole web page captured on whatever date has a problem. Let's put it elsewhere until we figure it out.
Yet each element that was timestamped 30 Apr ( even if that is an error) has now been spread over various dates.
Eg the main Ceop page reverts to 27 Apr but content that was within it then reverts to 13 May 14 May 20 May 27 May and that's just the ones I have followed up on.
It may be because I don't understand the tech side but if you are correcting anything don't you keep all the elements together till you do?

Mimi Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:09 pm

dogs don't lie wrote:Well, I ain't got a clue! I read every single word, trying to understand, but I'm a numpty cause I still haven't a clue! But wow to all who contribute, well done.

Same here DDL - my brain just goes blank with all this computer jargon.

But I`M SO IMPRESSED at just how clever Resistor, Andy B, WLBTS, HKP are - well done all of you.

CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007 - Page 23 Graphics-wow-557147

CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007 - Page 23 Graphics-wow-557147

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:11 pm

It's highly indicative to me that there is no "timestamp" error. Because then they would all have THE SAME "timestamp error". It looks to me like a pointer error, generated by a bug in, or misuse of, the indexing software. And it also looks as though someone is digging a hole even deeper in trying to fix it, and really they should just throw away the shovel.

chirpyinsect Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:14 pm

Hongkong Phooey wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:Daft question of the day.

If there was a capture made on 30apr of CEOP website which had various links to things like index, latest news, wanted etc and according to the boss man the captures are of every page within that site on that particular date and time, then how come the capture of 30/4 now reverts to the nearest date but not all pages go to the same date.
ie mccann.html goes to 13 May, wanted goes to 27 May? I would have thought pulling the "folder" that has all those sub sections with the same capture details would still be in the same "folder" and therefore pop up again on the nearest date 13 May.
They are now claiming that there was no 'capture' of McCann htm on 30/04 and it will eventually have a July date

How will they then explain that the mccann.html page contains latest news dated Oct? Or have they removed that?
If so they have changed it for a reason.

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:18 pm

Have I got this right? The way that the Wayback machine works is it captures whole websites/ pages, it then index's the pages into (what we could call) a folder. When you retrieve the website/ pages it reconstructs them from the index of whatever is there. Sometimes there can be issues with dynamic/JavaScript data not being captured the

Mimi Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:18 pm

Bubblewrapped wrote:My mother knows nothing about computers. Yesterday she visited us and I was on my laptop. A site asked me for a password and I didn't know what a special character meant as part of the password. I became very frustrated. My mum asked whats wrong to which I replied this site is asking for an effing special character as part of the password. She replied....
Tarzan ?

I`m not that bad. In fact my generation should be the most knowledgeable when you think about it because we lived through the introduction of computers. My father was working with the New York office to introduce computers to Cunard back in the 50s. And being a legal secretary back in the 70s and 80s we had the first word processors and our kids had the first computers. I had my own computer at the end of the 80s. Maybe its because we are set in our ways and the younger generation have completely by-passed us - we have not kept up.

This always makes me laugh

Guest Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:19 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:
Hongkong Phooey wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:Daft question of the day.

If there was a capture made on 30apr of CEOP website which had various links to things like index, latest news, wanted etc and according to the boss man the captures are of every page within that site on that particular date and time, then how come the capture of 30/4 now reverts to the nearest date but not all pages go to the same date.
ie mccann.html goes to 13 May, wanted goes to 27 May? I would have thought pulling the "folder" that has all those sub sections with the same capture details would still be in the same "folder" and therefore pop up again on the nearest date 13 May.
They are now claiming that there was no 'capture' of McCann htm on 30/04 and it will eventually have a July date
How will they then explain that the mccann.html page contains latest news dated Oct? Or have they removed that?
If so they have changed it for a reason.

I wondered that myself Chirpy but I don't have any answers (at all!)

dogs don't lie Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:26 pm

Mimi wrote:
dogs don't lie wrote:Well, I ain't got a clue! I read every single word, trying to understand, but I'm a numpty cause I still haven't a clue! But wow to all who contribute, well done.

Same here DDL - my brain just goes blank with all this computer jargon.

But I`M SO IMPRESSED at just how clever Resistor, Andy B, WLBTS, HKP are - well done all of you.

Ah that's brill Mimi! X

chirpyinsect Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:35 pm

Hongkong Phooey wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
Hongkong Phooey wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:Daft question of the day.

If there was a capture made on 30apr of CEOP website which had various links to things like index, latest news, wanted etc and according to the boss man the captures are of every page within that site on that particular date and time, then how come the capture of 30/4 now reverts to the nearest date but not all pages go to the same date.
ie mccann.html goes to 13 May, wanted goes to 27 May? I would have thought pulling the "folder" that has all those sub sections with the same capture details would still be in the same "folder" and therefore pop up again on the nearest date 13 May.
They are now claiming that there was no 'capture' of McCann htm on 30/04 and it will eventually have a July date
How will they then explain that the mccann.html page contains latest news dated Oct? Or have they removed that?
If so they have changed it for a reason.
I wondered that myself Chirpy but I don't have any answers (at all!)

Just checked and the Oct latest news has gone. I have downloaded the posters in various languages and there are 2 photos on them, tennis balls and the spotted top " first photo"
Now if any of this can be proved regarding 30Apr how would it have been possible to have a photo not yet meant to have been taken appear on a website?

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