Capabilities of the Dogs

Bampots wrote:does it say he bled in the bathroom?

Mr Gordon cut himself in the bathroom and bled for 45 minutes. That's all he says.
He doesn't say where he bled, though it would obviously have started in the bathroom and most probably above the sink where it would wash away.

My husband cuts himself now and again when shaving and the bleeding can take a while, but it doesn't drip all over the place. He uses one of those sticks to stop the bleeding or puts some tissue on it until it stops.

So I doubt it has got anything to do with the blood found behind the sofa and on the curtains.

Bampots wrote:does it say he bled in the bathroom?

It says that's where he cut himself but I doubt he locked himself in there for 45 minutes until it stopped

And he may have opened the curtains with some still on his hands or a tissue before it was dry. Just an idea

Regarding Eddie's apparent alerts to cadaver (and the revelation that some of these may have been a blood alert instead) - how can a corpse have been detected in so many different locations in and around 5a? They would have needed to move the body all over the place like some bizarre game of hide-and-seek

Neveronasunday wrote:

Corner of bedroom - cross-contamination from clothes or suitcase containing clothes? Need to know if this is possible
Cuddle Cat - cross-contamination, or corpse in UK or somewhere else not Praia?
Flowerbed - cross-contamination from bag or suitcase placed there on the way into 5a? Don't know if possible
Clothing - not directly related to Praia or 5a so the scent could have been acquired anywhere

Please note I am not saying any of the above is proven or even possible. But it needs to be discussed by those of you who are better informed on crime scene analysis than I am (does anyone here watch Bones?)



Once again, it's important to remember that an alert by the crime scene dog (Eddie) does not in itself appear to indicate cadaver scent. It may be blood unless Keela failed to react in the same place.

Where does it say that Eddie alerts to blood as well,as far as I can see Eddie alerted to a general area which would be a pool of air,Keela is then brought in for the specific area,behind the sofa being one but not by the wardrobe.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

On this date I join to the case files the translations of the verbal reports made in English by the police sniffer dog trainer Martin Grime, referring to the sniffer dog inspections carried out with the cadaver odour detection dog Eddie and the human blood detection dog, Keela.

Neveronasunday wrote: [...]

Regarding Eddie's apparent alerts to cadaver (and the revelation that some of these may have been a blood alert instead) - how can a corpse have been detected in so many different locations in and around 5a? They would have needed to move the body all over the place like some bizarre game of hide-and-seek

***
IMO it's possible, that that is the case ...

ETA there's some theory, that the "vague" marking by Eddie on the terrace and in the garden, is a result of the apartment being thoroughly cleaned and water containing cadaver odor washed out on that terrace and down to the garden. Grimes said - non verbatim - that Eddie wasn't really sure.

This is a fascinating read about the dogs. I would just like to point some things out though.

Not a single item of clothing indicated by the dogs was Gerry's. What happened to cross contamination?
If cross contamination is so "easy" why no or very few? indications on inanimate objects in 5a or villa, but there were in the Scenic (the key "card") not rented for three weeks and not tested for over two months.  
If the alerts were being confused for "live" blood from shaving cuts and/or kids grazing knee's or whatever, why absolutely no indications in any other apartments?

That's all I can think of for now...I'm sure they'll be more.

This is from Martin Grime's report in the PJ files. Seems to rule out use of synthetic cadaverine.

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its
manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver
dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on
my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.


And this in answer to Heisenberg
EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

TheTruthWillOut wrote: [...] 
If the alerts were being confused for "live" blood from shaving cuts and/or kids grazing knee's or whatever, why absolutely no indications in any other apartments? [...]

***
Excellent observation TTWO: why only alerts to 5A and McCs belongings and nowhere else?

Question: If one item of clothing that had been in direct contact with a dead body was placed into a suitcase and spent 24 hours+ in this confined space would it contaminate all items or only the ones it was directly touching? Or would there even be any contamination?

Split away from the Pat Brown topic, so please continue dog discussion here.

Heisenburg wrote:

Where does it say that Eddie alerts to blood as well,as far as I can see Eddie alerted to a general area which would be a pool of air,Keela is then brought in for the specific area,behind the sofa being one but not by the wardrobe.

From Grime's rogatory the EVRD dog can also alert to dried blood from a live person. But he doesn't say how old that blood needs to be.

"'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Ok,so what is the point of two dogs if Eddie can alert to cadaver and blood,having Keela there suggest to me that Eddie is only reliable in detecting cadaver and Keela blood.

Heisenburg wrote:Ok,so what is the point of two dogs if Eddie can alert to cadaver and blood,having Keela there suggest to me that Eddie is only reliable in detecting cadaver and Keela blood.

Eddie alerts to cadaver scent and/or dried blood in the general area.

Keela pinpoints the exact point of dried blood.

If Eddie alerts, and Keela alerts there is blood or blood/cadaver scent.

If Eddie alerts and Keela does not, it is definitely cadaver scent and there is NO blood present.

Just putting this in here from the other thread from a while ago - it was the first post and won't transfer, so here it is...

DarkestDawn wrote:I found this report earlier this evening (apologies of this is the wrong place to post) which is very enlightening.

Cadaverine is only one aspect of the 'scent of death' that these dogs pick up, in fact they've been able to correctly identify the scent from bodies that had died as early as 85 minutes previously.


http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html

seahorse wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:Ok,so what is the point of two dogs if Eddie can alert to cadaver and blood,having Keela there suggest to me that Eddie is only reliable in detecting cadaver and Keela blood.

Eddie alerts to cadaver scent and/or dried blood in the general area.

Keela pinpoints the exact point of dried blood.

See I don't get that,if Eddie is trained in blood detection he must surely be just as trained as Keela in its detection.

Heisenburg wrote:

seahorse wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:Ok,so what is the point of two dogs if Eddie can alert to cadaver and blood,having Keela there suggest to me that Eddie is only reliable in detecting cadaver and Keela blood.

Eddie alerts to cadaver scent and/or dried blood in the general area.

Keela pinpoints the exact point of dried blood.

See I don't get that,if Eddie is trained in blood detection he must surely be just as trained as Keela in its detection.

"On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable Timesonline

By Karen McVeigh

December 30, 2005

...

When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.

"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

Heisenburg wrote:

seahorse wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:Ok,so what is the point of two dogs if Eddie can alert to cadaver and blood,having Keela there suggest to me that Eddie is only reliable in detecting cadaver and Keela blood.

Eddie alerts to cadaver scent and/or dried blood in the general area.

Keela pinpoints the exact point of dried blood.

See I don't get that,if Eddie is trained in blood detection he must surely be just as trained as Keela in its detection.

He is trained to give an alert for dead body scent - barking

TRAINING

Pavlov's theory is used in the
case of the E.V.R.D. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a
verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of
tangible material is not required to produce the response merely the scent
itself.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


Note he does not mention blood, just cadaver odour.

candyfloss wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:

seahorse wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:Ok,so what is the point of two dogs if Eddie can alert to cadaver and blood,having Keela there suggest to me that Eddie is only reliable in detecting cadaver and Keela blood.

Eddie alerts to cadaver scent and/or dried blood in the general area.

Keela pinpoints the exact point of dried blood.

See I don't get that,if Eddie is trained in blood detection he must surely be just as trained as Keela in its detection.

He is trained to give an alert for dead body scent - barking

TRAINING

Pavlov's theory is used in the
case of the E.V.R.D. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a
verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of
tangible material is not required to produce the response merely the scent
itself.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


Note he does not mention blood, just cadaver odour.

This is what I'm getting at.

seahorse wrote:
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

Except in this case the needle is not to be found.

Maybe Eddie was sniffing in the wrong haystack. After all, he can only choose between the haystacks he's offered.

Mr Grimes sends one dog at a time,behind sofa the alerts are both cadaver ine and blood and implicates dead body that bled surely,whereas the wardrobe indicate was cadaverine only hence the theory that the body was concealed in blue bag then moved to flowerbeds and then who knows.....fridge in 5j or van onto Murats property,all speculation.

Of course unlike myself I put some tissue on my shaving nicks,the aforementioned razor King probably wandered around leaking life blood all over 5a much to the dismay of his wife!!!

The way I see the methods Martin Grime uses is like this:

Eddie is always sent in first for a general free roam. If/when he alerts in a specific area (in a bedroom, bathroom etc) only then Keela would be brought into this specific area. If Keela alerts it would be blood and/or cadaver scent. If no alert from Keela then cadaver scent.

I guess MG does this for time reasons and a sort of double blind test? Also if Keela went in first she would alert in most homes at some point?

Playing devils advocate, the implications if there is even a hint that the methods used could be flawed could be massive (dare I say national security massive?) given how many could have been convicted with such evidence? I think I read about a conviction in the US where MG's dog (Eddie maybe?) indicating in the boot of a car was the main piece of evidence against the suspect?

I still have confidence in the dogs, but it is still a discussion that is needed given how they are all but forgotten in this case, yet are still big evidence in other cases today.

That is exactly what I have read this morning TTWO from MG, that Eddie goes in first.... it is on one of the links posted.

I don't think the FBI would have called on Mr Grimes to work for them if the dogs were not excellent. As he says somewhere in those links, other dogs are called on to do other things, his dogs specifically worked with him for the purpose they were used for.

candyfloss wrote:That is exactly what I have read this morning TTWO from MG, that Eddie goes in first.... it is on one of the links posted.

I don't think the FBI would have called on Mr Grimes to work for them if the dogs were not excellent.  As he says somewhere in those links, other dogs are called on to do other things, his dogs specifically worked with him for the purpose they were used for.

I don't question their excellence, Candyfloss. I mentioned a US case in my previous post and it was the Bianca Jones case were MG's dog was Morse (not Eddie).

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html (scroll down to half way to the October 3rd Detroit News article)

Johnson, who questioned the forensic canine experts with direction from Texas-based police service dog analyst Steven Nicely, added that Morse didn't alert its handler to the scent of decomposition on Lane's clothing.

"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to," said Johnson, noting the positive detection hasn't been connected to Bianca's body or anyone else's. "You don't know if it was a positive or negative response."

Grime conceded a determination is usually made when something is found.

Very similar language as used in the McCann case except this one was in court and lead to a conviction. Which really surprises me because America usually has a higher threshold for evidence I thought.

Really interesting how the mans clothes didn't get alerted to but blanket/car seat etc did. The problem seems to be that the dogs are too good and they often don't find any physical evidence to back the alerts up (the McCann defense)

TheTruthWillOut wrote: The problem seems to be that the dogs are too good and they often don't find any physical evidence to back the alerts up (the McCann defense)

There in lies the crux of the matter,little dna evidence to back up the dogs,unless some one confesses then the status quo will remain imo,that seems unlikely.