Capabilities of the Dogs

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu May 19, 2016 7:24 pm

Sorry to be late to the party with this - but I think this snippet is worth rereading on this subject.




http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/ Expert Opinion, 29 January 2014  

It does not take an expert dog handler therefore to arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Martin Grime’s Springer Spaniel ‘Eddie’ indicated the presence, at some time or another, of a corpse in 5A the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, just as he had been trained to do and had done on many previous occasions.

The resultant paradigm is so simple that even those lacking the sense to which Ian Horrocks refers cannot fail to understand it:

Corpse transient (i.e., none found).

Recorded deaths in 5A prior to May 3, 2007 = 0

Recorded deaths in 5A post the McCanns’ occupation = 0

Occupants reported missing = 1 (Madeleine McCann).

No one, not even Gerry McCann, noticed a ‘little body’ inside 5A that night. One thing among many that a corpse cannot do of course is walk. How intriguing therefore that other items to which the EVR dog Eddie gave a positive reaction included a car key fob, and the car itself. (The word ‘transport’ springs immediately to mind).

As we know, in the enlightened legal world that is the UK and elsewhere, indications given by an EVR dog are insufficient of themselves. A CSI animal is required to operate ‘in tandem’ in order to source the sort of biological evidence that is acceptable, e.g., blood residues and the like.

- See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/#sthash.DM0mTUzw.dpuf

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Dee Coy on Thu May 19, 2016 9:31 pm

Thank you, bluebell. Never seen that Dr Roberts piece before. As ever, logical and succinct. Clarified the notion that the dogs are employed in tandem to confirm either blood, cadaverine or both. Excellent stuff,  thank you.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:26 am

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:32 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/adrien-mcnaughton-search-lake-1.3550321


@Canada12 - is this a case that you are familiar with?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:21 pm

Just came across a radio interview posted on twitter,interestingly at 14 minutes its talks of an infant decomposing quicker because of smaller organs etc,given that, is it possible that cadaver scent could have formed if Madeleine did indeed have an accident at 8-30 ish?

https://rmriinc.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dean_beers_conversation.mp3
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  poster on Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:24 pm

bluebell wrote:Sorry to be late to the party with this - but I think this snippet is worth rereading on this subject.




http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/ Expert Opinion, 29 January 2014  

It does not take an expert dog handler therefore to arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Martin Grime’s Springer Spaniel ‘Eddie’ indicated the presence, at some time or another, of a corpse in 5A the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, just as he had been trained to do and had done on many previous occasions.

The resultant paradigm is so simple that even those lacking the sense to which Ian Horrocks refers cannot fail to understand it:

Corpse transient (i.e., none found).

Recorded deaths in 5A prior to May 3, 2007 = 0

Recorded deaths in 5A post the McCanns’ occupation = 0

Occupants reported missing = 1 (Madeleine McCann).

No one, not even Gerry McCann, noticed a ‘little body’ inside 5A that night. One thing among many that a corpse cannot do of course is walk. How intriguing therefore that other items to which the EVR dog Eddie gave a positive reaction included a car key fob, and the car itself. (The word ‘transport’ springs immediately to mind).

As we know, in the enlightened legal world that is the UK and elsewhere, indications given by an EVR dog are insufficient of themselves. A CSI animal is required to operate ‘in tandem’ in order to source the sort of biological evidence that is acceptable, e.g., blood residues and the like.

- See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/dr-martin-roberts-2014/#sthash.DM0mTUzw.dpuf

Although David Payne at the time of his alleged visit to apartment 5A in the early evening of that fateful Thursday did wax emotional about how all three children looked like angels. His over-embellished account of how well cared for and happy the children looked is such a giveaway, imo. I suspect one of the children was anything but and, judging by the language he and other Tapas use in their rogatories (eg: Matt noticing a road they were searching on was called Cemetary Road - why would that be significant if the search was supposedly for a live child who had been abducted?) I strongly suspect that by 6.30pm on that fateful Thursday evening Madeleine was already dead.

And of course none of the group had a sports bag that was large enough to hide a small body tennis raquet in either!

I think if you read between the lines of the Tapas rogatories and scrutinize their alleged routines that week you can pretty much work out what happened and even when.

You can also work out who the important eye-witnesses are because they are either dissed - Mrs Fenn/social worker Yvette Martin -  or their sightings morped into a person who looks completely different - Mrs Fenn's niece/the Smiths.

Kate's desperate attempt to morph Smithman into Tannerman must mean that the Smith sighting - whoever it actually was - is important and potentially incriminating. I tend to believe it was GM in desperation carrying out a fake abduction at 10pm when there was supposed to have been one at 9.15pm. This would account for the bodged timelines and the fact that some witnesses reporting hearing a commotion about a missing child as early as 9.20pm.

ETA: So who the heck was supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters at 9.15pm I wonder?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:53 pm

poster wrote:
ETA: So who the heck was supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters at 9.15pm I wonder?

Some geezer who happened to bump into some one out walking his child in a pushchair perchance?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Heisenburg wrote:
poster wrote:
ETA: So who the heck was supposed to 'jemmy' the shutters at 9.15pm I wonder?

Some geezer who happened to bump into some one out walking his child in a pushchair perchance?
***
Right. And now imagine why someone not involved [I should have put that between reading marks] SEES both men [who cannot decided were they were standing, talking .. well at least GM cannot] and indeed no chance to "jemmy" whatever ...
On top and IMO, they'd never realised that PT was UK time [contrary to European continent], so they released the alert to family [and press?] too early.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  poster on Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:23 pm

I wonder whether there was an element of deliberate sabotage in this encounter?

If, as some have theorized, Madeleine was seriously hurt or even died earlier in the week then it is possible that some people got wind that something was up...it would be incredibly difficult to hide something like that in a holiday resort when the parents, their children and their friends' families are meeting up every day and sharing activities.

My money is on something having happened by Monday which is when the McCann routine deviates from that of their friends. I find kiko's analysis of the creche records quite compelling. And I find the collective TM amnesia about quiz night of interest. Neither KM or GM even mention it in their rogatories as far as I am aware and KM is incredibly vague about evening activities in her book. There is no mention of the Sunday quiz night that the quiz hostess states she did at the Tapas on Sunday night which would surely be one of the social highlights of the week? There is also no mention of the quiz night on Tuesday night - supposedly also at the Tapas although it seems quite unlikely, imo, that two quiz nights would be held so close together?

I wonder what other guests and staff say about quiz night - if anything?

A theory in a nutshell:

1. On Saturday at the OC welcome meeting GM's eyes light up when he spots a certain person who could potentially turn the family holiday from hell into something a little more diverting.

2. Quiz night on Sunday - wherever it was - develops a frisson. KM is not amused and is quite literally left holding the babies. 'Something' happens that night or possibly the next day - Monday - and the McCanns change their routine from that of their friends. Creche signature records appear to show remarkably similar signatures suggesting that GM may have signed in another child - apparently unconnected with the TM group alongside Madeleine (or, if you believe kiko's theory Madalene). The 'something' could be an accident or some kind of abuse or it could possibly relate to the day that Madeleine was supposed to have disappeared (Sagres?) On the other hand maybe 'something' happened at Sagres or even Burghau  (what's so special about Burghau over the way?) some have speculated?

3. No record of daytime activities on Monday from Kate in her book. This suggests to me something happened that she would prefer to keep silent about. A visit to the supermarket for 'essentials' in the early evening of Monday might be suggestive of a certain scenario perhaps? What essentials - suntan lotion and flipflops or something a bit more 'essential' maybe?

4. Weird tennis ball photo of Madeleine taken allegedly on Tuesday. Suggestive, imo, that Madeleine could not and did not take part in the mini tennis with her creche group that day. Photo did not appear for some time despite allegedly having been taken by Kate on Tuesday and therefore should have been available immediately.

5. A second quiz night on Tuesday - wherever it was held - at which GM invites the quiz host to his table throws petrol on the flames and all hell breaks loose. A neighbour overhears crying from the apartment for a long period of time. KM leaves the dinner table early and her phone is used shortly before the crying breaks out. The crying stops abruptly when the neighbour hears the patio doors opening or closing signifying someone or several people entering or of course leaving the apartment.

6. Wednesday KM and GM allegedly join the Payne adult members at the Millennium for coffee as their tennis is postponed due to rain. Kate then goes running, allegedly with Matt and apparently is bitten by a dog on the calf. She writes: 'maybe he just didn't like those pink trainers' but on the other hand maybe he sniffed out something else he didn't like about Kate? Dogs do have highly tuned noses and don't lie unlike people. According to Kate this was the night she and GM had a tiff and slept apart but I suspect this happened earlier in the week and quite possibly on several nights. The fact that Kate says this was unprecedented suggests to me that it wasn't (ahem!)

7. Thursday morning - an elaborate and entirely unbelievable account of how Madeleine at breakfast asks where her parents were when she and Sean cried the previous evening. But just drops the subject happily and moves on. This suggests to me that there was a crying incident earlier in the week involving Madeleine that was significant and was deeply distressing to her. And I suspect Kate was unable/unwilling to console her for whatever reason (possibly relating to Gasper statements?) Including Sean in the scenario I think is done to suggest that Madeleine was still in the same room as her siblings on Wednesday night when I suspect she wasn't. Plus also possibly covering bases in terms of Mrs Fenn's statement

8. Later on Thursday morning - beyond weird explanation of an encounter with a fellow guest with, allegedly, a video-recorder who is apparently embarrassed about videoing his three year old daughter playing mini-tennis as it 'made him feel like a dirty old man'. I think TM have deliberately distorted an incident in which they were caught red-handed video-recording someone else's child playing mini-tennis. Would love to see Nigel's statement. Possibly to produce as 'evidence' that Madeleine played mini-tennis that week. When maybe she didn't.[/i]

9. Kate writes about considering cancelling their Tapas booking and 'taking the kids to the Millennium instead' as she allegedly felt guilty because another couple had been unsuccessful about booking there and she wondered if it was fair that they were taking over the place. Interesting addendum - probably designed to a) suggest that all the children were fine and able to go to Millennium on Thursday night when this was not the case and b) to make it appear that she and Gerry had nothing more pressing to worry about than an altruistic concern about fellow diners. When in reality they were desperate to cover their backs perhaps? Kate and Gerry for the first time that week take part in a couples' tennis session on  Thursday afternoon. I suspect this was to try to show they had nothing more pressing to do than play tennis when this may not have been the case perhaps.

10. David Payne's alleged visit to apartment 5A that evening at around 6.30pm is hugely incriminating imo whether or not it actually took place. I believe it places him as being central (alongside GM, imo) to what happened that week. And I do not think the Gaspar statements should be ignored in this context either.

Unbelievable that Scotland Yard are still dithering around about this case...Keystone cops...or perhaps they are stuck between a rock and a hard place?

At least Saintly Kate and Statesman Gerry have been dethroned and I note how very, very supporters they have.

The whole 'troll' thing backfired because they are both quite stupid, imo, and unbelievably narcissistic.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:08 pm

Interesting theory poster, after 9 years all theories are worth consideration imo.    

I've been following the disappearance of Deorr Kunz for the past year  - a 2 year old from the USA who apparently completely vanished off the face of the earth without trace on a camping trip with parents.   No leads, no real evidence, he just vanished.  A different continent but a lot in common except in Maddie's time social media wasn't so prevalent as it is now.

Sorry, I diverse.  I really just had a question about "the lady in purple" who was apparently seen by more than one witness on the Thursday evening, outside/close to Apartment 5a.  I would be interested in your thoughts on her.  

Is she important?  Are the witnesses trustworthy?  Why was she there?  Is it even relevant?    Thanks.  j.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:15 pm

Any links to files or newspapers you could provide for the lady in....purple confused ......please bluebell??

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:21 pm

Lady in purple was Jane Tanner if memory serves and it probably doesn't.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:25 pm

Possibly Andrew.......     I've always assumed it was one of the T9 ladies.

Bampots - I will find some links for you, but be patient please.      Smile



ETA- Bampots, to begin, this from The Express http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/100071/EXCLUSIVE-Who-was-the-woman-outside-Maddie-s-flat


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Woman in purple

Post  bluebell on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:40 pm

I am not sure how much confidence there is generally in this site, but still an interesting read in this bit :

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6300.45

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:49 pm

Thanks bluebell......you can really forget more than you remember in this headf#ck! It comes back to me and as usual the typical atypical witness who asks someone else to let the police know what she seen......i mean wtf...eh????

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  bluebell on Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:04 pm

Bampots wrote:Thanks bluebell......you can really forget more than you remember in this headf#ck! It comes back to me and as usual the typical atypical witness who asks someone else to let the police know what she seen......i mean wtf...eh????


I know Bampots, 9 years ago my memory and brain function was better than now. Rolling Eyes

Do you have any thoughts on this lady ? I'd be interested to read them, she has always bothered me.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:25 pm

Top of my head.........it's got to be JT surely??  Bet you freedom could pull the photograph that fits the bill........when I see JT mentioned it's with "that" purple top I see in my mindseye.

I think she was looking out when seen.........also found this old Textusa post with an explanation of the whole Tannerman incident......well well worth a read.....it takes a few mins to read as it is set as a pictorial story.......let me know what you think?

http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/tanners-abductor-tale-told-by-special.html

Someone alluded to sad bloggers forever going over old ground(Cristobel I think!).......I think it's always worthwhile as you......reframe your ideas.....and Iam a bit sad! flower

Sorry off topic here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:32 pm


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:54 pm

That's the one!........in jeans she didn't take! cheers cheers

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:35 pm

Whatever happened to JT's jeans........

Did they end up in that barn... Can't remember what was reported now, back in the day.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  AndyB on Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:25 am

Bampots wrote:That's the one!........in jeans she didn't take! cheers cheers
That picture could've been taken in the UK. If there was one of her in jeans in Portugal, it would be pretty damning
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Bampots on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:14 am

Chirpyinsect have you or anyone else a source for JT ......forever in blue jeans......preferably in PdL

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:27 am

I'm sure this old article on on this site somewhere but will post it up again...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483881/Madeleine-Sniffer-dogs-scent-death-McCanns-friends.html
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:30 am

Bampots wrote:Top of my head.........it's got to be JT surely??  Bet you freedom could pull the photograph that fits the bill........when I see JT mentioned it's with "that" purple top I see in my mindseye.

I think she was looking out when seen.........also found this old Textusa post with an explanation of the whole Tannerman incident......well well worth a read.....it takes a few mins to read as it is set as a pictorial story.......let me know what you think?

http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/tanners-abductor-tale-told-by-special.html

Someone alluded to sad bloggers forever going over old ground(Cristobel I think!).......I think it's always worthwhile as you......reframe your ideas.....and Iam a bit sad! flower

Sorry off topic here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting,not seen that one before,one or two comments in there as well worth noting,
Taken from one of the comments.

It is absolutly certain that they got the help of a British guy living in Algarve, very confident with place and very close to the resort.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Andrew on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:40 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491653/Bag-clothes-dumped-near-Portugal-airport-shows-DNA-links-Maddie.html

Another old article mentioning jeans. Again I'm sure it's already on here somewhere but will stick it up here.
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