Capabilities of the Dogs

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 4:23 pm

nannygroves wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:Ask the dogs Sandra,or is it being said that a false trail was laid to fool the dogs brought in some time later,of course the McCanns could not know of this,conspiracy too far for me.


The McCanns could not know of this? Pray tell me why that is.

If its pre planned and some giant hoax is it seriously being proposed that Mr Grime was in on it?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 4:47 pm

seahorse wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
Freedom wrote:Someone mentioned earlier that it was Jane Tanner who worked for such a company.

Some proof would be good, whether it was her or Fiona Payne.
could be right Freedom, admit I might have misremembered who it was. Sure I read it on here though.

Jane Tanner worked in marketing for Fisher Scientific. They do produce cadaverine.

Didn't know she worked for Exeter Uni: http://www.exeter.ac.uk/departments/communication/webteam/team/janetanner/

According to Wikipedia you can make it yourself at home. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaverine

My bad on the name but I thought I had read it. Thanks Seahorse.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 4:51 pm

Interesting info from wiki.

Elevated levels of cadaverine have been found in the urine of some patients with defects in lysine metabolism. The odor commonly associated with bacterial vaginosis has been linked to cadaverine and putrescine.[8]


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:01 pm

Forgive me ... but ... someone suggesting KM urinated behind the sofa ... ?

ETA I've seen discussion on this subject - no offense meant - some 8 years ago and it led nowhere.
And we must recognise and remember Eddie's track record in multiple criminal cases.


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Freedom on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:03 pm

I don't think I want to go there either literally or metaphorically.

Are we saying the scent could have come not from a dead body but from someone with a urine infection?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:17 pm

Freedom wrote:I don't think I want to go there either literally or metaphorically.

Are we saying the scent could have come not from a dead body but from someone with a urine infection?
Nah, it was someone with bad breath..........

http://www.therabreath.com/articles/oral-care-tips-and-advice/bad-breath-can-practically-smell-like-death-3707/

Laughing Laughing


In which case the dogs would have alerted everywhere Smile

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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:21 pm

I can't get my head round this either, bizarre. Like Chatelaine I am convinced Eddie's track
record speaks volumes, and his findings in apartment 5a were 100% accurate.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Freedom on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:23 pm

I have worked with a few people whose presence could be smelt from quite some way off!

One woman in particular had an horrendous problem and from such a delicate area, shall we say, that everyone was too embarrassed to mention it to her.

Eventually it was some poor manager (male) who had to pluck up courage and speak to her about it.

Let's move on now to more fragrant things!
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:25 pm

Freedom wrote:I don't think I want to go there either literally or metaphorically.

Are we saying the scent could have come not from a dead body but from someone with a urine infection?
I make no such inference. Just thought it was interesting. This isn't a flounce but I will leave it there as it is going nowhere. Back to the drawing board.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  chirpyinsect on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:33 pm

Heisenburg wrote:
nannygroves wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:Ask the dogs Sandra,or is it being said that a false trail was laid to fool the dogs brought in some time later,of course the McCanns could not know of this,conspiracy too far for me.


The McCanns could not know of this? Pray tell me why that is.

If its pre planned and some giant hoax is it seriously being proposed that Mr Grime was in on it?

Absolutely not. I don't even know if the dogs could be confused by synthetic cadaverine. Probably not in which case, game over for there having been no death. What the dogs can't do us tell us when the death happened.

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Châtelaine on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:45 pm

Nor who it was. But there was death scent behind the sofa [& in other places] and no one's known to have died in that apartment nor in the car ...
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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:48 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:
nannygroves wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:Ask the dogs Sandra,or is it being said that a false trail was laid to fool the dogs brought in some time later,of course the McCanns could not know of this,conspiracy too far for me.


The McCanns could not know of this? Pray tell me why that is.

If its pre planned and some giant hoax is it seriously being proposed that Mr Grime was in on it?

Absolutely not. I don't even know if the dogs could be confused by synthetic cadaverine. Probably not in which case, game over for there having been no death. What the dogs can't do us tell us when the death happened.

My money is and has always been on the 'Dogs' Chirpy. This is one of the problems the McCann's need to overcome, but which is proving impossible for them.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 5:55 pm

Where the dogs indicated...


PJ Summary Report:


APARTMENT



- cadaver odour dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment



- cadaver odour dog:
* in the couple's bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe



- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, the dog handler commented on the lightness of the scent detected



- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)


VILLA

- cadaver odour dog:
* on the soft toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (cadaver odour was detected when the soft toy was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)


CAR

- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle



- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle



- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot




(The PJ Summary Report does not mention the cadaver odour indicated around the base of the driver's door - yet Eddie can be clearly seen in this video indicating cadaver odour there.



Presumably this is because, as Martin Grime explains, Eddie does not need to indicate a precise point - simply that there is cadaver odour there. Keela is then used to pin down precise points for their evidential value)

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html


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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:00 pm

From Grime's rogatory the EVRD dog can also alert to dried blood from a live person. But he doesn't say how old that blood needs to be.

"'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:10 pm

seahorse wrote:From Grime's rogatory the EVRD dog can also alert to dried blood from a live person. But he doesn't say how old that blood needs to be.

"'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Yes but Keela was the blood dog and Eddie was the cadaver dog, so if Keela alerted and Eddie then did then it would be indication of a body being there. If Eddie is sent in and doesn't alert there is no need for Keela to go in to find blood. They both give different signals keela freezes, and eddie barks. IIRC

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:16 pm

costello wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:
nannygroves wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:Ask the dogs Sandra,or is it being said that a false trail was laid to fool the dogs brought in some time later,of course the McCanns could not know of this,conspiracy too far for me.


The McCanns could not know of this? Pray tell me why that is.

If its pre planned and some giant hoax is it seriously being proposed that Mr Grime was in on it?

Absolutely not. I don't even know if the dogs could be confused by synthetic cadaverine. Probably not in which case, game over for there having been no death. What the dogs can't do us tell us when the death happened.

My money is and has always been on the 'Dogs' Chirpy. This is one of the problems the McCann's need to overcome, but which is proving impossible for them.

Just as impossible for OG to wind it up with out taking into the consideration of the dogs.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:28 pm

candyfloss wrote:
seahorse wrote:From Grime's rogatory the EVRD dog can also alert to dried blood from a live person. But he doesn't say how old that blood needs to be.

"'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Yes but Keela was the blood dog and Eddie was the cadaver dog, so if Keela alerted and Eddie then did then it would be indication of a body being there.  If Eddie is sent in and doesn't alert there is no need for Keela to go in to find blood.  They both give different signals keela freezes, and eddie barks.  IIRC




So the alerts behind the sofa / car key could be dried blood from a living person (behind the sofa could be linked to a fall as some speculate).  

APARTMENT
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle



And these are then definitely cadaver odour (if Keela didn't alert):



APARTMENT
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the couple's bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe
- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, the dog handler commented on the lightness of the scent detected

VILLA
- cadaver odour dog:
* on the soft toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (cadaver odour was detected when the soft toy was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)



And this last bit is a bit unclear. I'm assuming the last bit is added by someone outside the PJ.

CAR
- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot

(The PJ Summary Report does not mention the cadaver odour indicated around the base of the driver's door - yet Eddie can be clearly seen in this video indicating cadaver odour there.

Presumably this is because, as Martin Grime explains, Eddie does not need to indicate a precise point - simply that there is cadaver odour there. Keela is then used to pin down precise points for their evidential value)


ETA weren't there also alerts on some items of clothing?
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  Heisenburg on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:35 pm

Just seen this tweet,sums it up for me.



@JillyCL #mccann using 2 separate dogs detecting simultaneously across multiple items offers astronomical odds against error.
7h

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:42 pm

candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:45 pm

seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.

Two different alerts though seahorse, barking and freezing so the handler knows if the dog barks he is alerting to cadaver odour, not blood, I believe anyway.


Last edited by candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:49 pm

candyfloss wrote:
seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.

Two different alerts though seahorse, barking and freezing so the handler knows if the dog barks he is alerting to cadaver odour, not blood I believe anyway.

All right, thanks. I'll definitely have some more reading to do then  Wink

ETA just read some more. Eddie barks when he finds a scent. Keela freezes when she finds blood.

So it's not a case of Eddie barking or freezing for different things. He only ever barks or not as the case may be.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


Last edited by seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  candyfloss on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 6:55 pm

That's how I read it anyway seahorse, as I said I am not an expert on these things, but Grime goes into the way the dogs react with the different alerts of barking and freezing.

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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:07 pm

seahorse wrote:
candyfloss wrote:@seahorse,

CAR
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

Not sure and not expert, but the way it reads it seems the cadaver and blood dog indicated to key fob, which mean that it was cadaver on it.

Nor am I. I have never really read up on it as it seems so complicated.

I'm just thinking that if Eddie alerts to cadaver odour as well as dried blood, and Keela exclusively alerts to blood, if they both alert, it could be old dried blood.

But if Eddie alerted to a scent and Keela did not alert (meaning no blood), it would definitely be cadaver odour.

If that makes sense.

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.
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Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Post  seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:15 pm

costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grimes said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'

So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts (barks) Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts (freezes). This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts (barks). Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.


Last edited by seahorse on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re:Pat Brown blog spot-why McCanns love conspiracy theorists .

Post  costello on Fri 04 Mar 2016, 7:56 pm

seahorse wrote:
costello wrote:

I thought everyone was well aware that Eddie only alerted to cadaver scent. While Keela
again only alerts to blood. Surely each dog has been trained for a sole purpose, and that alone.

That's what I thought, until I found what Grime said as I quoted earlier in this thread, but I shall quote again:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.'



So from that I conclude:

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Alerts. This means it is blood or blood and cadaver odour.

The EVRD dog (Eddie) goes in. Alerts. Then the blood dog (Keela) is send in. Doesn't alert. This means it's definitely cadaver odour and not blood.



Do you have a link for Martin Grime's statement.Eddie alerted to cadaver scent and then Keela was used (the next day I believe) and she detected blood. Surely blood plus the
detection of cadaver odour results in a body having been there. I don't believe Martin
Grime would compromise his well trained dogs in any way. But I would like to see the link.
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