Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Châtelaine Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:10 pm

And they can do the most amazing things WITHOUT being specifically trained. If it interests you [plural] I can give you some examples.

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

I may have mentioned this before [I was thrilled, though I have watched and witnessed many amazing things]: Eddie once was taken to a sand beach, where some sand, taken from the coffin of a centuries-old mummy, was spread out. He found it!

seahorse Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:13 pm

From the Timesonline, 2005:

"When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.

"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

seahorse Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:18 pm

Châtelaine wrote:
And they can do the most amazing things WITHOUT being specifically trained. If it interests you [plural] I can give you some examples.

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

I may have mentioned this before [I was thrilled, though I have watched and witnessed many amazing things]: Eddie once was taken to a sand beach, where some sand, taken from the coffin of a centuries-old mummy, was spread out. He found it!

Absolutely! As well as cuddle cat and 2 items of Kate's clothing and one item of the kids' clothing.
That's what I've been trying to say. I 100 % believe in what the dogs have found!

I'm just trying to come to grips with the interpretation of it.

Châtelaine Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:25 pm

Eddie marking the airplane T-shirt has always bothered me, especially as Sean was seen wearing it after Madeleine's disappearance ...

seahorse Fri 04 Mar 2016, 11:38 pm

Châtelaine wrote:Eddie marking the airplane T-shirt has always bothered me, especially as Sean was seen wearing it after Madeleine's disappearance ...

Good point.

Someone wrote an interesting piece about that here:

https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/mccann-files/

chirpyinsect Sat 05 Mar 2016, 6:40 am

Well I seem to have started something so I would like to make it quite clear in case there is any doubt, I believe 100% in the dogs. I have always come back to their alerts whenever I have tried to look at other possibilities as to what may have happened in PDL.
Their indications are what keeps all of us who disbelieve the abduction story looking for answers.
I have wondered from time to time if M ever went to PDL because of other things that tell me she might not have been. For example, the dubious airport footage, produced for no other reason I can think of other than to imply she was there. Who films such a ridiculous scene? I said before that DP is heard on the bus saying "looks like we are on video" yet that supposedly comes after him filming them going up the steps. Wouldn't he already know the camera was on video?
Secondly the lack of credible photos of M in PDL. Thirdly the photo of a younger M being produced that night when the LP was supposedly on the camera. And don't even get me started on the LP itself.
So before the dogs came in, anyone would question her presence, I think. Just because we are told she was there, doesn't prove she was.
Then we have the dogs. What they prove is someone died and the body was there long enough to produce cadaverine. Not who or, more importantly, when.
Instead of working against one another, we should be looking at different scenarios. The same things have been said for nearly 9 years. As I said before I am happy to have anything I say dissected and disproved. It saves a lot of time on my part and sometimes it is difficult to unthink something, or a piece of evidence has been forgotten.
If you don't want to comment that's fine too but could we please not assume that out of the box thinkers are up to something or are dismissing the dogs. It's only a starting point, not a destination.

Neveronasunday Sat 05 Mar 2016, 6:50 am

Châtelaine wrote:

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

Yes I trust Eddie too, but the clothes in the wardrobe could have acquired the cadaver scent anywhere, not just in Praia.

The link that seahorse gave us regarding Sean's aeroplane T shirt is worth a read. There was a positive cadaver alert on it.

However, is it possible that this and other contaminated clothes were taken to Portugal from the UK following a return trip to pick up extra things when the holiday was extended?

Sean wasn't photographed wearing it until 4 June.

Eddie's alerts may not therefore be inconsistent with death in the UK for example.

It would be ironic if the contaminated clothes hadn't been in Praia to begin with but were transported there later in time for Eddie and Keela to sniff them out!

chirpyinsect Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:02 am

Neveronasunday wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:

Meanwhile, as someone said before, when Eddie barked at the master bedroom cupboard, Keela didn't. So no confusion: cadaver scent.

Yes I trust Eddie too, but the clothes in the wardrobe could have acquired the cadaver scent anywhere, not just in Praia.

The link that seahorse gave us regarding Sean's aeroplane T shirt is worth a read. There was a positive cadaver alert on it.

However, is it possible that this and other contaminated clothes were taken to Portugal from the UK following a return trip to pick up extra things when the holiday was extended?

Sean wasn't photographed wearing it until 4 June.

Eddie's alerts may not therefore be inconsistent with death in the UK for example.

It would be ironic if the contaminated clothes hadn't been in Praia to begin with but were transported there later in time for Eddie and Keela to sniff them out!

Very interesting thought. It is strange that Sean was wearing the T shirt by June. Had it been M's at one point? We know Kate recycles her kids' clothes.

Bampots Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:14 am

What about the blood alerts then?!? Or did Gerry cut himself shaving in Rothley,pick the scab in 5a....nah, can only be the dried in blood then from previous occupants,who thenwandered about with blood dripping from open wounds only for someone to drop the clothes from Rothley( that Kate had crushed to her not so maternal bosom!)which she had worn when dealing with all the dead bodies lying around Rothley before the visit?? Or more simply Sean had to attend work with Kate? Goodness we could go on for ever with this stuff.......Sorry, Neveronasunday,but my shops all open!

Neveronasunday Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:21 am

Six corpses? Not even on my radar.

Just the one.

seahorse Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:30 am

Bampots wrote:What about the blood alerts then?!? Or did Gerry cut himself shaving in Rothley,pick the scab in 5a....nah, can only be the dried in blood then from previous occupants,who thenwandered about with blood dripping from open wounds only for someone to drop the clothes from Rothley( that Kate had crushed to her not so maternal bosom!)which she had worn when dealing with all the dead bodies lying around Rothley before the visit?? Or more simply Sean had to attend work with Kate? Goodness we could go on for ever with this stuff.......Sorry, Neveronasunday,but my shops all open!

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but Keela can only alert to blood. She can't tell who it belonged to, or how long the blood was there. That's where forensics come in.

- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)

- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle

- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot

Bampots Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:42 am

I find some of the extrapolation extraordinary at times and just got carried away. I think I have to stick to one cup of coffee the morning!

seahorse Sat 05 Mar 2016, 7:48 am

Bampots wrote:I find some of the extrapolation extraordinary at times and just got carried away. I think I have to stick to one cup of coffee the morning!

Who is extrapolating?

Heisenburg Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:34 am

Maybe the McCanns are right to sue Mr Amaral after all.

chirpyinsect Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:36 am

Post subject: Re: Statements from Former Apartment 5 A OccupantsPostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:07 am
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Posts: 10653
CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5)

Pages 36 to 38—Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon

Date 2008.04.24

Summarised translation:

Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Account
Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon
Occupation: Accountant

Date : 24th April 2008

I am married to Saleigh and we have two children, C...... aged three and J..... aged two.

We stayed in the same apartment that the McCanns would later stay in, apartment 5ª of the Ocean Club. We travelled to Faro on 21st April 2007.

On Wednesday the children were asleep in the apartment and Sal was reading inside. I was in the garden when I heard a male voice say “Ola”. I got up and went towards the man who asked me whether I was interested in making a donation to an orphanage. I talked to him and notice he had an ID label and what seemed to be a book of receipts. I thought he was either genuine or that it was a professional scam. I gave him 10 Euros and I think he gave me a receipt. At no time was he aggressive or persistent. I think he was genuine and it seemed to be a good cause.

There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal except that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. The cut bled for about 45 minutes. As far as I know, nobody else cut themselves in the apartment.

We felt safe in the apartment and were not robbed, neither did anything disappear. The doors, windows and shutters were in perfect working order. There was never any sign that that the doors, windows or shutters had been tampered with, but neither was there any need to check. The front door had a double lock that was difficult to lock, but we managed. The patio door could not be locked from the outside, only from the inside of the apartment and that is why we chose to use the front door when we left the apartment.

We used to open the shutters during the day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing them.

We would generally have breakfast in the Millenium restaurant, we only dined at the Tapas Bar on two occasions. I remember there was a limit to how many times we could eat at the Tapas Bar.

I would like to add that since January of this year I have received numerous phone calls, messages and visits from the press with relation to the man collecting donations, which led to contact with other persons such as Brian Kennedy, Kate and Gerry McCann. I feel this to be constricting and it is difficult for me to make a more certain decision.

I have always tried to collaborate with the police in every possible form, telephoning them at the first opportunity when the news broke about Madeleine’s disappearance. There have been times when I have felt like a pawn in a chess game.

Thanks to McCann files.
_________________

Heisenburg Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:39 am

PdL - where families take it in turn to vomit each night, dog packs pursue and bite joggers, guests fall off catamarans, damage tendons playing tennis, have shaving accidents and stagger around apartments bleeding, domestic appliances need repair, shutters jam, baby monitors won't function at restaurants, travel cots can't be assembled.. sounds like THE VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED.
Anonymous 12 Nov 2013 12:37:00

chirpyinsect Sat 05 Mar 2016, 8:42 am

This is interesting.

There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.

ETA

- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).

27 September 2007

2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details

TRANSLATION BY ALBYM & INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm

Heisenburg Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:02 am

chirpyinsect wrote:This is interesting.

There were 4 families who occupied the apartment between the time that the PJ had given the key back after the disappearance and the dog inspection. The links are on here somewhere, I'll add them when I find them again.

ETA

- At the Ocean Club, apartment 5A had been booked for the nights of 28 April through 4 May (vacating on 5th); the family stayed in apartment 4G from 4 May through 2 July (vacating on 3rd)
- Apartment 5A was subsequently let between 12 and 19 June (to friends of the owner); 28 June to 12 July (to three people with Irish names); 12 to 19 July (to an English couple) and 19 to 26 July (to a family with Southern Asian names).

27 September 2007

2945 to 2952 Letter to Amaral from his inspectors re: investigation
2953 to 2954 Winkworth contract of McCann villa rental details

TRANSLATION BY ALBYM & INES
11- PROCESSO Vol 11 Page 2945 to 2956
In a letter direct to GA from DCCB dated 27 September 2007 (Vol 11 p2945):
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm

Now that is interesting,from the same file.

- After the disappearance apartment 5 A was occupied by the following individuals: 12-06-2007 - 19-06-2007 by R and F. F****** (friends of the owners), from 28-06-2007 - 12-07-2007 by SR, W & CF, 12-07-2007 to 19-07-2007 by BSP and JFP, 19-07-2007 - 26-07-07 by MMS family.

So the dogs were brought in after these dates?

Heisenburg Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:11 am

Dogs were brought in 31/07/2007

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:

So the apartment was let a further 4 times before the dogs were brought in,cross contamination defence any one?

**candyfloss** Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:12 am

There is a thread somewhere on CMoMM where I posted with links a piece from Mr Amaral that stated that the flat was empty for months and that the keys were eventually returned to Mrs Ruth McCann. If someone is a member there perhaps they can search as I cannot find a link now, it may be in his book, I remember it distinctly as we were having the same discussions re the flat being let, but according to what I posted it wasn't....

Anyway, it is very odd, the different stories, here is this from the Sun, remember we had lots of people say the flat stood empty. I can't imagine anyone actually staying there after what happened anyway, and would think the tour operators would change their apartment number.

Here is a story from the Sun saying the flat was never used after Madeleien disappeared from it.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3754139/Holiday-family-in-Madeleine-McCann-flat.html

Holiday family in Maddie flat

THE holiday apartment where Madeleine McCann was kidnapped is being used by families for the first time since her abduction four years ago.
A couple and their young child were seen at the weekend in the ground-floor flat, which has been empty since Maddie disappeared aged three.
A British tourist at the Ocean Complex resort in Praia da Luz, Portugal, said: “I saw a young family staying in the apartment, enjoying their holiday.
“They didn’t seem to have a care in the world, and if I hadn’t known of the flat’s history, I wouldn’t have given it a second look.” The apartment’s British owner, retired Liverpool teacher Ruth McCann, 57, has been trying to sell it for £255,000 since Maddie’s abduction.
Mrs McCann — no relation to Maddie’s family — took the two-bedroom flat off the market last May after finding no one was interested because of its background. She was now believed to be letting it again to holidaymakers.
Maddie disappeared from her bedroom in May 2007 while her parents, Leicestershire doctors Gerry and Kate, were dining with friends at a nearby restaurant.

Heisenburg Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:16 am

Flies in the face of the files though candy.

dogs don't lie Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:18 am

Maybe after the dogs it was not let to anyone?

Guest Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:21 am

One might expect that a followup to the cross-contamination suggestion would be, the police checked all the occupants before and after the McCanns, up until the time the dogs were brought in, and nobody reported any deaths or the proximity to any deaths and nobody reported any situation where blood spatter could be explained behind the sofa? Therefore by process of elimination... what were the chances of cross contamination...?

**candyfloss** Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:22 am

Heisenburg wrote:Flies in the face of the files though candy.

Yes, it does, I totally agree, but I do remember people being interviewed in PDL saying that the apartment remained empty. scratch

And I definitely remember posting the link on the other place.

dogs don't lie Sat 05 Mar 2016, 9:24 am

Where or when would cadaver odour stop being transferable? Otherwise all clothes would alert, heck, doctors/police could be muderers, what would be the point with Eddie? I've just buried my father-in-law (called Eddie) yesterday, do I have cadaver odour? Just questions and I totally believe in Eddie and Keela!
IMO.

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