Capabilities of the Dogs

Exactly TTWO they smell that which has been there and is no longer, a vestige or perhaps one could say a memory. I think if you boil down the dog indications I could have good reason to look for further evidence of body behind couch, cadaver in cupboard/wardrobe and flower bed,these areas to be further investigated along with the alerts in back of car which were for blood.

I read on CMOMM a disscussion concerning John Lowe of Forensic Service Science, now disbanded, and if you read what he says concerning the boot of the car, he appears to point in Madeleine's direction in the most definite manner only to pull back with a BUT.......

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html           Scroll down to find relevant text....

"A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why?...

Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.


What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Bimiingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles."

So he says there is a match but then asks how legitimate it is......can anyone say if the 15 matches would suffice in the UK as I thought they would?

Bampots wrote:Exactly TTWO they smell that which has been there and is no longer, a vestige or perhaps one could say a memory. I think if you boil down the dog indications I could have good reason to look for further evidence of body behind couch, cadaver in cupboard/wardrobe and flower bed,these areas to be further investigated along with the alerts in back of car which were for blood.

I read on CMOMM a disscussion concerning John Lowe of Forensic Service Science, now disbanded, and if you read what he says concerning the boot of the car, he appears to point in Madeleine's direction in the most definite manner only to pull back with a BUT.......

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html           Scroll down to find relevant text....

"A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why?...

Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.


What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Bimiingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles."

So he says there is a match but then asks how legitimate it is......can anyone say if the 15 matches would suffice in the UK as I thought they would?

What does a DNA match tell us?
By Channel 4 News Updated on 11 September 2007
Portuguese police have found DNA matching missing Madeleine in the McCann's hire car, reports say. Is this a key breakthrough in the case?

Q. What has been found in the car?

A. Over the weekend Portuguese police sources said that had discovered DNA samples that were an 80 per cent match to missing Madeleine McCann.

Then, late yesterday reports claimed the police had found samples that were a 99 per cent match. The hire car, a Renault Scenic, was used by Kate and Gerry McCann 25 days after the girl went missing.

Q. So what does the 80 per cent match tell us?

A. Not a lot.

An 80 per cent match indicates that 16 of 20 markers used in analysis are the same. But not only does that suggest the sample was small, but that this type of 'match' doesn't rule out other family members - notably Madeleine's siblings Sean and Amelie.

Q. And the 99 per cent match?

A 99 per cent match could be significant - if a large sample has been discovered.

If that's the case then it is unlikely to have been transferred by another source. If it's a small sample, however, it could easily have been transferred when the McCann's were moving some of Madeleine's belongings such as her 'cuddle cat'.

Equally, the sample could be a hair follicle stuck to clothing or a child seat.

Q. Can you tell if DNA comes from a dead body?

A. No. In the words of Allan Scott, a lecturer at the University of Central Lancashire's School of Forensic and Investigative Sciences: "It is about your blood group, which does not change because you have died. A person's DNA profile does not change just because they die.

He added: "You can tell if the DNA has degraded but that could happen fairly quickly depending on the environment, if for example it is getting baked in the sun.

"It may be possible to see that a DNA sample has degraded because of where it was or the length of time between it being deposited and recovered but that does not tell you if the person is dead or alive."

http://www.channel4.com/news/locations/uk.html

Again though Bampots, as interesting as that is, my question(s) would be: How often do/did DNA/LCN scientists have to separate out multiple contributors? How many have been convicted anyway and not been allowed this 'but' defense? How often do swabs come back with multiple contributors?

If it can be shown that what the FSS did in this case, they've done in other cases then it at least would show they were being fair. If not.....it might explain some things.

A(wait for it!!!) Textusa blog quote bit of Goncales book ....

.....The DNA of stain 3 belongs to Maddie. John Lowe says so twice. The PJ once.

To try to ignore this FACT is to be an idiot. And the choice of word is not ours. It’s Stuart Prior’s, as Mr Amaral describes in his book:

“On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine's DNA profile.

As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue: either this LCN technique is not reliable or it's simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine's DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: "With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England."”

Now do link all of the above with the fact that the only realistic scenario is for stains 1 to 15 in the living room of apartment 5A to have a single source origin.....

http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/fss-its-maddies-blood.html

From FSS;its Maddies blood.  Lots of references to check out but worth a read..

Thanks Bampots, her own lawyer also said...

Mrs McCann says their lawyer warned them: ‘If you were Portuguese, this would be enough to put you in prison.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385336/Kate-McCann-Madeleine-guilt-meant-I-make-love-Gerry.html#ixzz4230kVtxm

So would it be a fair shout that the reason we're still here 9 years later is down to what happened with the dogs and DNA incidents? It is funny to me they haven't been mentioned much at all for years in MSM and not even by KH?

FSS shut down
MG to USA
MH to Australia

And could it be that the route they decided to take back then has now made it impossible for OG/PJ to make a case now?

I would just like to confirm one thing . that mr grimes made it clear that the odour collected in the wall area of wardrobe , that doesn't mean ,a body was in the said wardrobe at all ,bag or no bag ,it just collects that way in a room . I don't think I have ever seen the size of talked about bag ,just seen small end of it in cupboard , so not convinced it was used for what we think could have been carried in it . just thinking after a long time on this thread today .joyce1938.

To be fair TTWO thats exactly what the parents would want imo

Bampots wrote:Of course unlike myself I put some tissue on my shaving nicks,the aforementioned razor King probably wandered around leaking life blood all over 5a much to the dismay of his wife!!!

He wouldn't have needed to bleed all over the apartment, a trace of blood on a finger could easily be transferred to another room in 5a - enough to be picked up by the mighty Keela.

mighty indeed,so much so that police forces world wide pay lots of money to deploy them,fools that they are!

I'm not trying to be awkward, just attempting to close all the other possible explanations for the microscopic blood spots splattered on the wall and floor

If we can rule out all other reasons, we can reasonably conclude that they came from MM, and I hope that's where we're heading

I also recognise the logic when others have said that the dogs alerted in 5a but not other apartments - that in itself is a strong indication

However, I would like to consider one other possibility - could the blood spots have come from a sneeze?

I am being serious, as this link will demonstrate: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f50/blood-when-sneezing-211952/

Anything could have caused it. A cleaner catching a nail,a sneeze, even a shaving nick. However moving to the FSS results,depending on how you think they should be interpreted,I think in all probability something is suspicious and points one way. The question which is equally important is why the samples are so difficult to test,it would seem someone scrubbed the flat as best they could.....now why would that be??

I've always wondered how much Dr Amaral knows with regards to the MI5 security service
man that 'had a word' with Martin Grime at Faro airport before he returned home.

But the PJ files show the blood spots splattered all over the place. What on earth could have caused this?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

That's why I suggested a sneeze

All sorts of things can cause blood spatter:

http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/blood/principles.html

An interesting read. Do we think any of those things might have happened to Maddie?

I doubt that anybody shot her

Neveronasunday wrote:But the PJ files show the blood spots splattered all over the place. What on earth could have caused this?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

That's why I suggested a sneeze

A suggestion that`s not to be sneezed at neveronasunday - sorry couldn`t resist it

I mean it though - it could be a bloody sneeze although I reckon the droplets would be more in number and finer.

I`ve never really looked into those blood spots because I thought they were explained away as being something else - can`t remember by whom. Maybe it was the Forensic people who did all the tests.

If they really are blood spatters, surely someone has a lot of explaining to do.

Some of the earliest suggestions were that if Madeleine had fallen and hit her head, the injury might have caused a spray of blood from her nose or from a wound. Also there was a suggestion that a blow to the head could have caused it. And finally, an emergency tracheotomy to assist breathing might also have resulted in blood spatter.

canada12 wrote:Some of the earliest suggestions were that if Madeleine had fallen and hit her head, the injury might have caused a spray of blood from her nose or from a wound. Also there was a suggestion that a blow to the head could have caused it. And finally, an emergency tracheotomy to assist breathing might also have resulted in blood spatter.

There was also mention of a broken hyoid bone which would have been consistent with blood spatter, by none other than Martin Brunt. No links as it seems to have been whooshed but there is a reference to it by Tigger on Jill's some time ago.

joyce1938 wrote:I would just like to confirm one thing .  that mr grimes made it clear that the odour collected in the wall area of wardrobe , that doesn't mean ,a body was in the said wardrobe at all ,bag or no bag ,it just collects that way in a room . I don't think I have ever seen the size of talked about bag ,just seen small end of it in cupboard , so not convinced it was used for what we think could have been carried in it . just thinking after a long time on this thread today .joyce1938.

Wasn't there a mention of a bag being large enough to carry a tennis racket.

C Mitchell says there wasn't a bag,couldn't possibly mean there was does it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573575/Gerry-McCanns-tennis-bag-is-focus-of-inquiry.html

If you look at the photo of the blood splatter uploaded by Mimi (above) it's hard to believe that this could have come from a wound caused by a child who fell off the sofa

Check out the sheer distance between the top one on the left and any of those on the right

Falling off the sofa would never create such a horrendous scene

I think we need another explanation

So here are the results of those blood spot swabs........



FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 16

A low-level DNA result was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3B). In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

286A/2007-CRL 4A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
An incomplete DNA result, apparently originating from a female individual, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
A mixed DNA result, apparently originating from at least two persons, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result. In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 17

286A/2007-CRL 6A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
The DNA results obtained through LCN from cellular material present in these combined swabs contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful comparison.

286A/2007-CRL 7A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
A mixed DNA result, apparently originating from at least two persons, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

286A/2007-CRL 8A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
The DNA results obtained through LCN from cellular material present in these combined swabs contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful comparison.

286A/2007-CRL 9A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
An incomplete DNA result, apparently originating from a male individual, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result. Also, this result did not match in any way the profile obtained from swabs 286A/2007 CRL 1A & B.

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 18

286A/2007-CRL 10A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
A mixed DNA result, apparently originating from at least two persons, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

286A/2007-CRL 11A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
The attempt to obtain a DNA result through LCN from all and any cellular material recovered from these combined swabs was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.

286A/2007-CRL 12A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
A mixed DNA result, apparently originating from at least two persons, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there is no evidence that supports the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 19

286A/2007-CRL 13A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
The attempt to obtain a DNA result through LCN from all and any cellular material recovered from these combined swabs was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.

286A/2007-CRL 14A & B Swabs collected from the rear of the sofa
Weak and incomplete DNA results consisting only of some unconfirmed DNA components were obtained from the cellular material present in these wet and dry swabs. In my opinion the results are not adequate for comparison purposes. These samples were submitted for LCN analysis.

A mixed, low-level DNA result was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in each of the swabs. In my opinion, there are no conclusive indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to these results.

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 20

286A/2007-CRL 15A & B Swabs collected from the rear of the sofa
A weak and incomplete DNA result showing indications as having come from more than one person was obtained from the cellular material present in dry swab (15A) effected on the rear of the sofa. In my opinion the result is not adequate for comparison purposes. These samples were submitted for LCN analysis.

A DNA result, apparently originating from at least three persons of whom at least two were male and contributed the majority of the DNA, was obtained from the cellular material present in the wet swab (15B) effected on the rear of the sofa. In my opinion, there are no conclusive indications that justify the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

An incomplete, low-level DNA result, comprising only some DNA components, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the dry swab (15A). In my opinion, there are no conclusive indications that justify the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result.

The wet swab (15B) was not submitted for further LCN anaysis.

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 21

286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain
286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain

These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected. The hem of one of the blue curtains (16) was swabbed to collect any cellular material that might exist. An incomplete, inconclusive DNA result consisting only of two unconfirmed DNA components was obtained. In my opinion the result is not adequate for comparison purposes. The sample was submitted for LCN analysis.

An incomplete, low-level DNA result, comprising only some DNA components, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material recovered from the hem of one the curtains. In my opinion, this result contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.

Object attributed to Leicestershire Police

HQ MJN/994 Cloth / piece of cotton wool
The object consisted a plastic bag containing a piece of cloth around cotton wool which showed orange and brown spots. No blood was detected.

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 22

Object sent to Mr & Mrs McCann, Rothley, Leicester
EMJ/53 Envelope

The envelope flap was swabbed to recover any cellular material that might exist. An incomplete, low-level DNA result was obtained through LCN which, in my opinion, was too complex to permit meaningful interpretation.

The attempt to obtain a DNA result through LCN from all and any cellular material that might have existed on the gum of the envelope was unfruitful, given that no DNA profile was obtained.

Conclusion

In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Honestly can't see an adult pulling out a sofa to sneeze though, if it was on a wall that can be seen without moving furniture, fair enough.

Heisenburg wrote: [...]
Wasn't there a mention of a bag being large enough to carry a tennis racket. [...]

***
IIRC it was DP, who stated that GM had no bag big enough to hide a tennisracket in ...

@ddl Sofas are moveable, and we don't know that this particular sofa was always in the same place, so I would have thought several sneezes is still a potential explanation. Next time someone near you sneezes, just see where it all goes - everywhere!

I can't accept the idea of emergency DIY surgery, what would be the reason for that if she only fell off the sofa?

Thinking logically -

Is it possible that Keela would have detected blood spots in any house? Your house, my house, anywhere where people have been

But that the blood dog (Keela) alert only becomes relevant if the crime scene dog (Eddie) has detected a potential crime (cadaver scent or larger accumulations of blood)?

I have no doubt that Eddie's detection of cadaver scent in certain places (the places where he alerted but Keela didn't) is relevant and suggests a death, almost certainly that of Maddie

The question is where it occurred

If, as I have suggested, Keela's nose was so good that it would detect dried blood almost anywhere if asked, it's possible that M died elsewhere but the cadaver scent was transferred to the Eddie locations via clothing etc