Annulment request REJECTED by Supreme Court

Still diddly squat then...

When they lost last time, the Sun was reporting it within literally minutes as the news broke and the DM within the hour.

I can only think that they've had all the in-house legal teams in first thing this morn to clarify exactly what can be written......

Or maybe it's all just swept under the rug with a 'nothing to see here' sign.... In which case I'll pack my bags.

Although for the greatest exposure then they'll release it online later on today and ready to hit the actual rags for tomorrow's editions.

Andrew wrote:

Or maybe it's all just swept under the rug with a 'nothing to see here' sign.... In which case I'll pack my bags.

I've often thought of that as a potential endgame. That everybody will know, but nothing will be done.

I must admit, I've often thought that the people 'upstairs' who make the decisions (including both UK and Portugal), literally don't have a clue in what to do with all this mess, let alone how to conclude it.

(Supreme court aside as that's different)

What mess? I thought you believed Grange to be genuine. If it is then what to do is straight forward - let Grange take its course and go with its conclusions. Surely it's only a mess if Grange is not what it's claimed to be?

unreorganised wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Or maybe it's all just swept under the rug with a 'nothing to see here' sign.... In which case I'll pack my bags.

I've often thought of that as a potential endgame. That everybody will know, but nothing will be done.

'Nothing will be done' may have worked when so many of the public were unaware of the details of the case, but it's a different ballgame now. I was at my local chippy late afternoon yesterday just before the appeal result became known: the owner, who previously had been very dismissive about the case, was now full of the Gaspar statements, 48 questions and Gerry's lost CATS record.

I'm still confident that we're very close to the endgame (indeed may well be in it) - but don't of course have a clue what that will entail. I'm very dubious that the Panorama crew were in PdL in February to film material for transmission in May and think Sonia Poulton's sojourn at Sky and absence from Twitter since January are bound up in some way with the case.

You could be right. However, Governments pick winners and losers all the time. It will simply be down to political expediency. If it's easier just to sit on hands rather than come up with a neat conclusion then that's what will happen. I mean, what's anybody actually going to do - go there, perform a citizen's arrest?

Yep - there's also the small matter of jurisdiction. Unless the Met can prove murder as opposed to accidental death then there is no offence that they can prosecute (and that assumes that Grange is genuine, which I doubt)

AndyB wrote:

Andrew wrote:

unreorganised wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Or maybe it's all just swept under the rug with a 'nothing to see here' sign.... In which case I'll pack my bags.

I've often thought of that as a potential endgame. That everybody will know, but nothing will be done.

I must admit, I've often thought that the people 'upstairs' who make the decisions (including both UK and Portugal), literally don't have a clue in what to do with all this mess, let alone how to conclude it.

(Supreme court aside as that's different)

What mess? I thought you believed Grange to be genuine. If it is then what to do is straight forward - let Grange take its course and go with its conclusions. Surely it's only a mess if Grange is not what it's claimed to be?

Good morning, AndyB.

Yes - I do think OG are genuine. And I would hazard a guess that they think it's all a mess as well (hence why it's taken so long to unravel). If it was very simple and straightforward then we wouldn't be chatting about it now.

I perhaps didn't phrase my earlier comment very well, so apologies.

Also, I said 'often' thought.... I don't think that all the time.

In layman's terms, then both countries could do without the whole McCircus. And it's only going to get worse. That's not to say that both countries don't want to put it all to bed. As it will have to be very soon...

And I guess that depends on whether you're on the justice side (like me) or the cover-up side (like you). Either way - it has to end

I think this is a watershed moment - I can't see how it can be swept under the carpet - Jack is out of the box and there's no going back IMO.

espeland wrote:

unreorganised wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Or maybe it's all just swept under the rug with a 'nothing to see here' sign.... In which case I'll pack my bags.

I've often thought of that as a potential endgame. That everybody will know, but nothing will be done.

'Nothing will be done' may have worked when so many of the public were unaware of the details of the case, but it's a different ballgame now. I was at my local chippy late afternoon yesterday just before the appeal result became known: the owner, who previously had been very dismissive about the case, was now full of the Gaspar statements, 48 questions and Gerry's lost CATS record.

I'm still confident that we're very close to the endgame (indeed may well be in it) - but don't of course have a clue what that will entail. I'm very dubious that the Panorama crew were in PdL in February to film material for transmission in May and think Sonia Poulton's sojourn at Sky and absence from Twitter since January are bound up in some way with the case.

Absolutely, totally  agree with that.

@AndyB, I believe SY opened the investigation to work alongside the PJ, and it would be the PJ that would take over.  SY would be needed for investigations over here, the two work in tandem, and I believe as espeland does we are close to an endgame.

candyfloss wrote:
@AndyB, I believe SY opened the investigation to work alongside the PJ, and it would be the PJ that would take over.  SY would be needed for investigations over here, the two work in tandem, and I believe as espeland does we are close to an endgame.

If I had a pound for every time I've thought that over the last few years I'd have, ooooh, about four quid now.

@Candyfloss & Andrew. I hope you're both right and I'm wrong but, even if Grange is genuine, why does there have to be a neat conclusion, and why now? We all want one of course, but that doesn't mean there has to be one. It may suit tptb better to have it drag on forever, in which case that's exactly what will happen

REally sorry that I'm late to the party but what fantastic news!!

AndyB wrote:

unreorganised wrote:

espeland wrote:


'Nothing will be done' may have worked when so many of the public were unaware of the details of the case, but it's a different ballgame now. I was at my local chippy late afternoon yesterday just before the appeal result became known: the owner, who previously had been very dismissive about the case, was now full of the Gaspar statements, 48 questions and Gerry's lost CATS record.

I'm still confident that we're very close to the endgame (indeed may well be in it) - but don't of course have a clue what that will entail. I'm very dubious that the Panorama crew were in PdL in February to film material for transmission in May and think Sonia Poulton's sojourn at Sky and absence from Twitter since January are bound up in some way with the case.

You could be right. However, Governments pick winners and losers all the time. It will simply be down to political expediency. If it's easier just to sit on hands rather than come up with a neat conclusion then that's what will happen. I mean, what's anybody actually going to do - go there, perform a citizen's arrest?

Yep - there's also the small matter of jurisdiction. Unless the Met can prove murder as opposed to accidental death then there is no offence that they can prosecute (and that assumes that Grange is genuine, which I doubt)

WRT political expediency, surely now is the time to get the Portuguese people and Government 'onside' with the Brexit issue here?

WRT what's anybody actually going to do Well, the PJ could issue an EAW for any or all of the T9 to be sent to Portugal to 'assist with inquiries', which the UK would honour.

no offence that they can prosecute Agreed. In the last week or two, I posted that OG were working to their remit to disprove all the false sighting reports and thereby assist the PJ in any future case they bring against the McCanns. Proscution in the UK would follow - presumably - any 'guilty' decision in Portugal and be linked to the Fund.

AndyB wrote:@Candyfloss & Andrew. I hope you're both right and I'm wrong but, even if Grange is genuine, why does there have to be a neat conclusion, and why now? We all want one of course, but that doesn't mean there has to be one. It may suit tptb better to have it drag on forever, in which case that's exactly what will happen

What do we mean by 'is Op Grange' genuine? Do we all have different interpretations of this?

I firmly believe that it Operation Grange was set up by DC to investigate the 'case of Madeleine.' It opened up a can of worms and DC / TM realised that there was a cover up going on over the
case of Madeleine Mc Cann. Op Grange then became a 'vehicle' to be directed by the government. Op Grange sits there ready to close the case in whatever way the PM (TM now) sees fit. It probably has all the evidence in place to
bring a more truthful conclusion but has also worked hard to provide the means to an 'archive' . It sits there patiently having worked hard to produce what is needed for whatever the government decides. So - for the General Public it is intended to look like a genuine investigative operation - and to some extent it is - however it does not have free reign to come to the conclusion it wants - it has to wait for orders from the PM.
Is that genuine? Yes and no!

I hope this isn't dumb but surely, even if all OG does is eliminate an abduction, that's a good thing for PJ isn't it? We then have evidence of absence as Peter Mac would say, don't we?

What's_up_doc? wrote:I think this is a watershed moment - I can't see how it can be swept under the carpet - Jack is out of the box and there's no going back IMO.

I agree.

I think that OG is a genuine investigation but I also think that, even if it isn't, Kate & Gerry won't ever get their happily ever after.

The highest court in Portugal has stated the McCanns are not innocent and the worst OG could do would be to let the investigation fizzle out.

So the McCanns don't get their exoneration. They get the sideways looks, they get the whispers, they get the sudden silences as they walk in a room and, for all their threats, this case will be a major topic of conversation on the internet for years to come. They are waiting for Mr Amaral to sue, publish another book or do the rounds on the tv sofas - not necessarily the UK but I'm sure that Oprah would invite him in a heartbeat. Plus they have the Sword of Damocles that one day there might be a real investigation.

To rub salt into the wound, they also know that if they had come clean 10 years ago, they would be in the clear now.

I hope OG is genuine to provide justice for Madeleine and closure for the friends and family who are also victims but Kate & Gerry are being punished either way.

espeland wrote:

AndyB wrote:

unreorganised wrote:

espeland wrote:


'Nothing will be done' may have worked when so many of the public were unaware of the details of the case, but it's a different ballgame now. I was at my local chippy late afternoon yesterday just before the appeal result became known: the owner, who previously had been very dismissive about the case, was now full of the Gaspar statements, 48 questions and Gerry's lost CATS record.

I'm still confident that we're very close to the endgame (indeed may well be in it) - but don't of course have a clue what that will entail. I'm very dubious that the Panorama crew were in PdL in February to film material for transmission in May and think Sonia Poulton's sojourn at Sky and absence from Twitter since January are bound up in some way with the case.

You could be right. However, Governments pick winners and losers all the time. It will simply be down to political expediency. If it's easier just to sit on hands rather than come up with a neat conclusion then that's what will happen. I mean, what's anybody actually going to do - go there, perform a citizen's arrest?

Yep - there's also the small matter of jurisdiction. Unless the Met can prove murder as opposed to accidental death then there is no offence that they can prosecute (and that assumes that Grange is genuine, which I doubt)

WRT political expediency, surely now is the time to get the Portuguese people and Government 'onside' with the Brexit issue here?

WRT what's anybody actually going to do Well, the PJ could issue an EAW for any or all of the T9 to be sent to Portugal to 'assist with inquiries', which the UK would honour.

no offence that they can prosecute Agreed. In the last week or two, I posted that OG were working to their remit to disprove all the false sighting reports and thereby assist the PJ in any future case they bring against the McCanns. Proscution in the UK would follow - presumably - any 'guilty' decision in Portugal and be linked to the Fund.

As none of us knows what the political motivation/imperative is that caused Grange to be set up, its difficult to see whether Brexit could impact on it or not. What do you mean by "onside"?

As far as EAWs are concerned I'm sure its a lot more difficult than a simple form. Wouldn't they have done that at the time they wanted the reconstruction done if it was that simple? Has anyone ever been extradited from the UK on a EAW? I don't know but I get the impression its easier to get extradited to the USA than Europe.

Helenmeg wrote:
I firmly believe that it Operation Grange was set up by DC to investigate the 'case of Madeleine.'  It opened up a can of worms and DC / TM realised that there was a cover up going on over the case of Madeleine Mc Cann. Op Grange then became a 'vehicle' to be directed by the government.

Who or what was doing the covering up if DC & TM weren't involved in it? Why would the discovery of a cover-up cause Grange's remit to change from genuine investigation to a vehicle for whatever outcome the government wants? Surely that's been its purpose from the off?

AndyB wrote:
As none of us knows what the political motivation/imperative is that caused Grange to be set up, its difficult to see whether Brexit could impact on it or not. What do you mean by "onside"?

At least one defender between the attacking player and the goalkeeper at the moment they receive the ball?

AndyB wrote:
As far as EAWs are concerned I'm sure its a lot more difficult than a simple form. Wouldn't they have done that at the time they wanted the reconstruction done if it was that simple? Has anyone ever been extradited from the UK on a EAW? I don't know but I get the impression its easier to get extradited to the USA than Europe.

Another anachronism of the EU. You've got freedom of movement for individuals but no freedom of jurisdiction for law enforcement.

AndyB wrote:s none of us knows what the political motivation/imperative is that caused Grange to be set up, its difficult to see whether Brexit could impact on it or not. What do you mean by "onside"?

By 'onside' I meant that any Portuguese view in the forthcoming negotiations would likely be more favourable to us than if the McCann case wasn't settled - we'll have plenty of problems with Eastern European countries and don't want more from Portugal.

unreorganised wrote:

AndyB wrote:
As none of us knows what the political motivation/imperative is that caused Grange to be set up, its difficult to see whether Brexit could impact on it or not. What do you mean by "onside"?

At least one defender between the attacking player and the goalkeeper at the moment they receive the ball?

[Pedantry=on]Two opponents. Although usually one is the keeper, it doesn't have to be. And its when the ball is played, not received [/Pedant]

Andrew wrote:The fact that over 7,000 individuals suspected of serious crimes have been extradited from the UK under the EAW system since 2010 is a strong reason to stay in it.

That's me put right then :-)

Just answering AndyB with the last couple of posts in regards to EAW figures:

The UK made 2,102 arrests In the 2015/16 alone from warrants issued elsewhere.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-justice-committee-security-european-court-arrest-warrant-theresa-may-a7642441.html