Capabilities of the Dogs

what does add up is the Portugese retained material for further testing which Andy Redwoods last rogatory request,or thereabout, showed interest in.....now that would be interesting.

chirpyinsect wrote:So Eddie barked to signal cadaver odour in the parents' bedroom but Keela didn't indicate there so no blood. This suggests to me that Eddie would have a different alert for blood than cadaver odour otherwise how would they know what he was signalling?

I too am assuming the alert is the same, that's why Keela is needed so the cadaver scent is confirmed as such.

chirpyinsect wrote:
Both dogs indicated behind the sofa so to me, it looks like whatever injury she sustained happened there. Blood which Keela found and cadaver scent meaning she lay there for at least 90 minutes, if that is how long it takes for a child.

Yes, I agree. Although some reports indicate it could be a lot earlier than 90 mins.

chirpyinsect wrote:
Supposing she had been hit or strangled ( sorry horrible)  and fell backwards in the presence of an adult, surely they would not have left her there that long.Even in a panic you wouldn't leave her there. More likely to get something to wrap her in or place her body in and get it away from the apartment, knowing or at least suspecting that the police would do forensics. At this point I am assuming no pre planning and no earlier death. This is all supposing there is a reason to hide the body.

Yes - this could also indicate that it was blood only both dogs alerted to behind the sofa. The body itself being stored elsewhere in the apartment after the evernt, hence cadaverine only in the other places.

chirpyinsect wrote:I believe the neglect was a concotion after the event so in order for odour to develop, perhaps whatever she was wrapped in was left behind the sofa then moved to the bedroom. No blood indication in there says she was cleaned up and placed in something which means no blood was in contact with any surface in the room.
The weak flowerbed indication and the veranda alert say she was hidden in something as no one would leave a body in view. And again no blood was indicated to.Who would suspect a sports bag though?
Does anyone agree this is possible?

Agree entirely.

Deecoy said "I too am assuming that the alert is the same, that's why Keela is needed so the cadaver scent is confirmed as such"

I was saying it will be a different alert from Eddie for cadaver or blood otherwise if he barked how would they know if he was barking for blood or cadaver odour?

I also think it was reported that Eddie indicated cadaver odour behind the sofa and Eddie indicated there was also blood.

Will check the files now.

Bampots wrote:what does add up is the Portugese retained material for further testing which Andy Redwoods last rogatory request,or thereabout, showed interest in.....now that would be interesting.

Yes Bampots, I remember posting a tweet from Adiren on this matter. Agree interesting
indeed.

Catupatree wrote:When they said the scent of death was found in the flower bed, which one did they mean? Back or front? If it was at the back underneath the veranda, she may have fallen down into the bed and died. Body then transferred into the flat when found. Still doesn't explain the blood on the wall though.
New here, I post under different name in the Complete Mystery forum, be gentle with me. Can be a bit challenging over there at times. Have been following the case for several yrs but I think what the dogs found is especially interesting so decided to join when I saw this discussion.

Hello and welcome. You must know my cat as he is always up a tree.

This is snipped from Mr Grime's statement.

The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.


Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.

Catupatree wrote:When they said the scent of death was found in the flower bed, which one did they mean? Back or front? If it was at the back underneath the veranda, she may have fallen down into the bed and died. Body then transferred into the flat when found. Still doesn't explain the blood on the wall though.
New here, I post under different name in the Complete Mystery forum, be gentle with me. Can be a bit challenging over there at times. Have been following the case for several yrs but I think what the dogs found is especially interesting so decided to join when I saw this discussion.

Welcome to the forum Catupatree!

It was the garden under the veranda where Eddie alerted. Several branches were sent off to forensics.

"They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room and that the dog specialised in detection of human cadaver odour had detected the presence thereof in the couple's bedroom and in the back garden of the apartment.

Because of this it was also asked of the undersigned that they entered into contact with an English scientific advisor, named Jonathan Smith, who indicated which traces should be collected and the best way to proceed with their collection.

In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant."





http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm

Catupatree wrote:When they said the scent of death was found in the flower bed, which one did they mean? Back or front? If it was at the back underneath the veranda, she may have fallen down into the bed and died. Body then transferred into the flat when found. Still doesn't explain the blood on the wall though.
New here, I post under different name in the Complete Mystery forum, be gentle with me. Can be a bit challenging over there at times. Have been following the case for several yrs but I think what the dogs found is especially interesting so decided to join when I saw this discussion.

Hi Catupatree!

Martin Grime says Eddie alerted to the veranda outside the parent's bedroom and the garden under the veranda:

The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.


Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.

Goncalo notes that the alert in the flower bed seems more 'uncertain' like a shrug of the shoulders:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.

This - to my inexpert eye - suggests that the scent was maybe weaker? Perhaps the body was inside something and rested there only briefly? Plus, the outside area will have been open to the elements all summer.

chirpyinsect wrote:Deecoy said "I too am assuming that the alert is the same, that's why Keela is needed so the cadaver scent is confirmed as such"

I was saying it will be a different alert from Eddie for cadaver or blood otherwise if he barked how would they know if he was barking for blood or cadaver odour?

I also think it was reported that Eddie indicated cadaver odour behind the sofa and Eddie indicated there was also blood.

Will check the files now.

When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.

"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."

While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

Eddie barked. Though I think the dog handler could differentiate between strong and weak scent according to Eddie's reaction. Hence the weak indication in the flowerbed.

chirpyinsect wrote:Deecoy said "I too am assuming that the alert is the same, that's why Keela is needed so the cadaver scent is confirmed as such"

I was saying it will be a different alert from Eddie for cadaver or blood otherwise if he barked how would they know if he was barking for blood or cadaver odour?

I also think it was reported that Eddie indicated cadaver odour behind the sofa and Eddie indicated there was also blood.

Will check the files now.

Sorry, I'm being confusing. I think Eddie makes the same signal - i.e., barking - for both blood and cadaver alerts.

But I've read a lot that Eddie only barks when he alerts, but it isn't clear if that means alerting to cadaver only or both blood and cadaver. I think it means both, but I'm not certain. I've looked, but can't find anything concrete.

Dee Coy wrote:

chirpyinsect wrote:Deecoy said "I too am assuming that the alert is the same, that's why Keela is needed so the cadaver scent is confirmed as such"

I was saying it will be a different alert from Eddie for cadaver or blood otherwise if he barked how would they know if he was barking for blood or cadaver odour?

I also think it was reported that Eddie indicated cadaver odour behind the sofa and Eddie indicated there was also blood.

Will check the files now.

Sorry, I'm being confusing. I think Eddie makes the same signal - i.e., barking - for both blood and cadaver alerts.

But I've read a lot that Eddie only barks when he alerts, but it isn't clear if that means alerting to cadaver only or both blood and cadaver. I think it means both, but I'm not certain. I've looked, but can't find anything concrete.

IMO:

1. Eddie did not have a different alert method (as per article from 2005, way before the McCanns came on the scene, so no ulterior motive), he barked, or he didn't. But could bark less (flowerbed), something only the dog handler could interpret.
2. This means that if Eddie barks it could be blood or cadaver scent
3. If Keela also alerts (freezes) there is definitely blood involved, though that does not rule out cadaver odour as well
4. If Eddie alerts, but Keela doesn't alert, there is no blood, but definitely cadaver odour

That's the way I see it, Seahorse

So that means possibly (but only remotely, imo, that it was blood only behind the sofa. A bleeding but still alive person could have been removed before death or perhaps after death but before cadaverine had chance to develop. Of course, the other alerts do confirm presence of a body elsewhere in 5A.

It is quite interesting reading #mccann yesterday and today, it seems 'The Dogs Findings'
are still of interest. Hmm....

I do hope and think 'The trolls' are being kept at bay' with the likes of Jilly and Papa R.

Dee Coy wrote:That's the way I see it, Seahorse

So that means possibly (but only remotely, imo, that it was blood only behind the sofa. A bleeding but still alive person could have been removed before death or perhaps after death but before cadaverine had chance to develop. Of course, the other alerts do confirm presence of a body elsewhere in 5A.

Oh ok I think I have it now but just to be clear; if Eddie barks it could be either smell but if Keela doesn't bark but Eddie did, it has to be c.odour.
I also now see how it could just have been blood behind the sofa as bith dogs alerted. Phew.

ETA this means M could have died elsewhere but her body was brought in to the apartment bleeding. Was placed behind sofa while a receptacle was found, then moved to the bedroom.

chirpyinsect wrote:

Dee Coy wrote:That's the way I see it, Seahorse

So that means possibly (but only remotely, imo, that it was blood only behind the sofa. A bleeding but still alive person could have been removed before death or perhaps after death but before cadaverine had chance to develop. Of course, the other alerts do confirm presence of a body elsewhere in 5A.

Oh ok I think I have it now but just to be clear; if Eddie barks it could be either smell but if Keela doesn't bark but Eddie did, it has to be c.odour.
I also now see how it could just have been blood behind the sofa as bith dogs alerted. Phew.

ETA this means M could have died elsewhere but her body was brought in to the apartment bleeding. Was placed behind sofa while a receptacle was found, then moved to the bedroom.

Keela doesn't bark, she wasn't trained to bark, she freezes..... which means blood, Keela only alerts to blood not cadaver odour, so if Eddie after being sent in barks, the handler presumes there has been a body, but it could be transfer, or even clothes,  he therefore sends in Keela to see if she can find any blood evidence, and of course it is blood evidence and dna that can or may be used in court.   (That is how I interpret it all)

candyfloss wrote:

chirpyinsect wrote:

Dee Coy wrote:That's the way I see it, Seahorse

So that means possibly (but only remotely, imo, that it was blood only behind the sofa. A bleeding but still alive person could have been removed before death or perhaps after death but before cadaverine had chance to develop. Of course, the other alerts do confirm presence of a body elsewhere in 5A.

Oh ok I think I have it now but just to be clear; if Eddie barks it could be either smell but if Keela doesn't bark but Eddie did, it has to be c.odour.
I also now see how it could just have been blood behind the sofa as bith dogs alerted. Phew.

ETA this means M could have died elsewhere but her body was brought in to the apartment bleeding. Was placed behind sofa while a receptacle was found, then moved to the bedroom.

Keela doesn't bark, she wasn't trained to bark, she freezes..... which means blood, Keela only alerts to blood not cadaver odour, so if Eddie after being sent in barks, the handler presumes there has been a body, but it could be transfer, or even clothes,  he therefore sends in Keela to see if she can find any blood evidence, and of course it is blood evidence and dna that can or may be used in court.   (That is how I interpret it all)

Yes sorry CF I should have said if Keela didn't freeze but Eddie barked... Need my dinner.

Thanks to all of you who have answered my question about which flowerbed the scent of death was detected in, very kind of you to welcome me into the forum too. So it was under the veranda, which I suppose makes falling off the veranda a possibility. Also someone might have placed the body on the veranda on the way back in to the flat, leaving the scent there too. The only problem then is why would anyone want to cover that up? Also it wasn't the front door so it' s unlikely anyone would have put a bag there on the way in or out. Also nobody would have left their clothes there either.
I wonder how the smell got there then? It is true that water used to clean up might have had the scent in it and then been poured on the flowers? Doesn't make much sense to me. But I've been thinking about this 'whodunnit' for a few years now and not much of it makes sense to be honest.

candyfloss wrote:

chirpyinsect wrote:

Dee Coy wrote:That's the way I see it, Seahorse

So that means possibly (but only remotely, imo, that it was blood only behind the sofa. A bleeding but still alive person could have been removed before death or perhaps after death but before cadaverine had chance to develop. Of course, the other alerts do confirm presence of a body elsewhere in 5A.

Oh ok I think I have it now but just to be clear; if Eddie barks it could be either smell but if Keela doesn't bark but Eddie did, it has to be c.odour.
I also now see how it could just have been blood behind the sofa as bith dogs alerted. Phew.

ETA this means M could have died elsewhere but her body was brought in to the apartment bleeding. Was placed behind sofa while a receptacle was found, then moved to the bedroom.

Keela doesn't bark, she wasn't trained to bark, she freezes..... which means blood, Keela only alerts to blood not cadaver odour, so if Eddie after being sent in barks, the handler presumes there has been a body, but it could be transfer, or even clothes,  he therefore sends in Keela to see if she can find any blood evidence, and of course it is blood evidence and dna that can or may be used in court.   (That is how I interpret it all)

Thank you Candyfloss, this is the way I have interpreted both dogs findings from day one. Eddie is used first and if he 'barks' ie cadaver scent, then Keela is sent in to back up his findings, if she detects any blood residue she 'freezes'.

The classic theory seems to be that GM exited 5A with the blue bag and it's contents, perhaps resting it on the veranda while he secured the patio door? Then on the way down he had to unexpectedly place the bag in the flowerbed as he encountered Jes Wilkins.....

Of course one theory amongst many. It is quite possible the reverse happened and the bag was taken into the apartment.

Catupatree's cleaning theory is something I've never thought of. Would cadaverine remain in the water used for cleaning? Quite possible the cleaning water was brushed ongo the patio thence over into the flowerbed. Hmm. But would the scent survive that?

Dee Coy wrote:The classic theory seems to be that GM exited 5A with the blue bag and it's contents, perhaps resting it on the veranda while he secured the patio door? Then on the way down he had to unexpectedly place the bag in the flowerbed as he encountered Jes Wilkins.....

Of course one theory amongst many. It is quite possible the reverse happened and the bag was taken into the apartment.

Catupatree's cleaning theory is something I've never thought of. Would cadaverine remain in the water used for cleaning? Quite possible the cleaning water was brushed ongo the patio thence over into the flowerbed.  Hmm. But would the scent survive that?

Cadaver scent is still picked up after several washes in a washing machine (Eddie picked up scent from cuddlecat after it had been washed), so yes I would say it would remain in water used for cleaning.

Did Keela also alert to the flowerbed?

"In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant."

Do I remember correctly, that KM said/wrote she was one day clipping the climbing plants below the terrace ...?

Châtelaine wrote:Do I remember correctly, that KM said/wrote she was one day clipping the climbing plants below the terrace ...?

I remember that too. She was pruning a hedge or something.

seahorse wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:Do I remember correctly, that KM said/wrote she was one day clipping the climbing plants below the terrace ...?

I remember that too. She was pruning a hedge or something.

I vaguely remember something too, but have no recall of where it would be.

A quick Google suggests this pruning incident is in her dairy and happened on the first morning (29th April?) Also mentioned was the blind to the patio door/window of their bedroom (directly above the bush?) was fixed because Gerry broke it.

Isn't all this a bit odd...........no scratch that, this is the McCann case. My mistake.

TheTruthWillOut wrote:A quick Google suggests this pruning incident is in her dairy and happened on the first morning (29th April?) Also mentioned was the blind to the patio door/window of their bedroom (directly above the bush?) was fixed because Gerry broke it.

Isn't all this a bit odd...........no scratch that, this is the McCann case. My mistake.

That does seem odd, second day into your holiday and you are pruning?