Capabilities of the Dogs

The McCs have an army of high profile lawyers ...
I acknowledge, there have been these other cases, where the dogs findings were good enough to go to court and get a conviction. A lot of things, including Freudian slips of the tongue in TV interviews and newspaper articles,  indicate that they know more than they want to be known.
My "hope" is a modern analysis of the hairs - if they're still available.

TheTruthWillOut wrote:This is a really fascinating debate, but I do feel the wood is being obscured by the trees. To me logic and common sense seems to have been thrown out the window with all this (a legal thing, I guess?)

I assume Eddie and Keela searched all apartments/cars/clothes/what have you, equally. What are the chances two highly trained dogs that had never knowingly made a false positive would all of a sudden make so many mistakes?

What are the chances that no other apartment/car/clothes of anybody else in PDL the dogs checked got a hit? I think this comes down to how the dogs are deployed and used by Martin Grime. Eddie seems to have been the dog that always checked first. If he found cadaver odour or blood then Keela is sent to check that area only to confirm which. If Keela hits then it is definitely blood and possibly cadaver odour too. If Keela doesn't hit it is definitely only cadaver odour.

Martin Grime has always gone out his way to point out material has to be found to back up the dogs and here samples were recovered but the FSS testing came back inconclusive either because of aggressive clean up, sloppy collection methods or for more sinister reasons.

I can think of two cases where dog(s) have indicated cadaver odour where nothing else was found that have been used in court to help conviction. Bianca Jones (Martin Grime dog) and Suzanne Pilley (SYP dogs).

Here you go, watch these brilliant dogs in action in the Suzanne pilley murder by Gillroy.......

Have a look at 6.07 inthis short film....








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA-C-2yU2D0&list=PLqCRot81fJGSLKVOFHncD6ExJoDlQOh0t



Sorry, it' s on link above, video comes out in post and on preview, but when posted it disappears!

Well worth a watch/

Worthwhile a watch indeed, Candyfloss.
Excelant policing.
She must be somewhere there in the missing hours.
Sincerely hope, for the sake of her parents, she'll one day be found :-(

Excellent video, Candyfloss. The line: "Key Evidence" right at the start of the dog section.....even though they were "only" indications and nothing was found.

The double standards here is what should be getting the public up in arms, IMO. I assume the silence from the likes of Martin Grime and others is because they've been slapped with official secrets act crap?

Eddie alerts in Adrian Prouts house

This is even more similar, Eddie alerted between the patio doors and the settee....

Watch from 33.13 mins into documentary..




Eddie searched room by room, and alerted behind sofa, Prout found guilty with no body.  He later confessed and told police where he had hidden Kate Prout.

Again here is the link the videos will not post, forumotion has been messing about again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqUH0vDvew

He was adamant he did not kill her, there was even a website Justice for Adrian Prout   -


Brings a lump to your throat watching Eddie alert in the same place as once before

http://fytton.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/cuddle-cat.html


Enter the dogs.


The cadaver dog reacted to Cuddlecat  but not to the bed or the mattress on which it had rested. Cadaverine contaminates textiles very quickly. I came across an old exchange with Monkeymind – who as an ex-policeman should know what he’s talking about.
If  the bed was clean according to Eddie, then Cuddlecat was also clean on the night of the 3rd of May 2007. Therefore the contamination must have occurred at a later date. Remember that the blanket disappeared as well and had left no trace of cadaverine on the bedding either.


Fibres (probably of the blanket) were however found in the barn some 25 km distant from PdL and the same fibres were found in the car. G. Amaral has stated in an interview that when the blanket is found the case is solved. I think the suggestion is that she was buried in the blanket or had been wrapped in it at one stage. Which must also have been after 3/5.
Now the check trousers Kate wore must be the clothing that Jon Corner referred to. If she bought those in Portugal after 3/5 – which may be true, logic then dictates that the kitchen photo is fake – having been taken some months earlier.

But it gets more interesting. Kate wore jeans to travel in. Had any of her clothing been contaminated by six corpses, all her clothes would have been contaminated in the suitcase. But Eddie only alerted to trousers, t-shirt and Cuddle Cat. Blanket and CC were not contaminated on the night of the 3rd. Kate’s clothing must have been contaminated after arrival in PdL.

so why did cuddlecat get contaminated but the bed did not.....astute observation from our friend tigger.
Especially if you consider the narrow windows between the evenings events.

Interesting, Bampots. I'm trying to work the permutations and possibilities through my head (I'm struggling here!)

One thing I would suggest that may be a non-starter, but I'll say anyway:

What if M was carrying CC when an accidental fall occurred (say behind the sofa) causing contamination there. Then later the blanket was reunited with the body at the barn when the Renault was used?

I'm not sure of the date of the fibres being found 25km away in a barn though? It may make this explanation moot....

The biggest issue I have with contamination is the seeming lack of it. CC must have made a lot of contact with textiles (bedding, K's backpack etc) in the months after May 3rd but I don't believe the dogs indicated on anything like bedding in the villa or a backpack (if that was tested?) or even in other places CC went. Maybe it being washed twice affected this to some degree?

I know where your coming from but if cuddlecat was a prop for pr purposes,and if you read tiggers blog on the link she thinks it was,then perhaps CC was kept handy in one place. Also I don't know if body contact gives contamination or if it is transferable in which case the dogs could have gone bonkers scenting everywhere? John Corner reckoned CC reeked of Maddies DNA! I think we can take Kate's claim of six bodies with a pinch of salt,what did she do embrace them? Cadaverine on her trousers? Top,hands perhaps,trousers unlikely,the doctors I see in action use rubber gloves and avoid sitting on dead bodies.
I think TM thought the flat was clean and overlooked under tile blood,microscopic drops and completely about Cadaverine......too clever by half......imo

I thought the pink  blanket was on the bed, photographed by the PJ.

Wasn't Goncalo Amaral looking for that blanket but never got it?

TTWO quote: Further to that Candyfloss surely those dogs rechecked 5A while there.

I have wondered why only two dogs were photographed searching the wasteland in PdL
last July. There were four dogs in total dispatched IIRC, so surely the other two were used
elsewhere. Just my thoughts.

costello wrote:TTWO quote: Further to that Candyfloss surely those dogs rechecked 5A while there.

I have wondered why only two dogs were photographed searching the wasteland in PdL
last July. There were four dogs in total dispatched IIRC, so surely the other two were used
elsewhere. Just my thoughts.

Agree. I wonder if the searches outside and two dogs at the "snail" and Andy doing his helicopter ride was a look over here, not over there ploy?

TheTruthWillOut wrote: [...]. I wonder if the searches outside and two dogs at the "snail" and Andy doing his helicopter ride was a look over here, not over there ploy?

***
That has past my mind many times ...

TheTruthWillOut wrote:

costello wrote:TTWO quote: Further to that Candyfloss surely those dogs rechecked 5A while there.

I have wondered why only two dogs were photographed searching the wasteland in PdL
last July. There were four dogs in total dispatched IIRC, so surely the other two were used
elsewhere. Just my thoughts.

Agree. I wonder if the searches outside and two dogs at the "snail" and Andy doing his helicopter ride was a look over here, not over there ploy?

I would say that was a definite.

It would probably be the only time a few officers and the other 2 dogs could get inside 5a and do what they need to do, whilst everyone else was watching the chopper.

Andrew wrote: [...]
It would probably be the only time a few officers and the other 2 dogs could get inside 5a and do what they need to do, whilst everyone else was watching the chopper.

***
Or a bit further away ... in the back country ...?

I also think the press there were either internal SY or a hand picked few that were highly controlled. They seemed to me to be too up close and personal with the officers with hands in drains.

In fact, thinking about it some more, the whole operation (that we saw) gave off a feeling of "showing off". This just wouldn't be done unless there was a very good reason for it, IMO.

TheTruthWillOut wrote:I also think the press there were either internal SY or a hand picked few that were highly controlled. They seemed to me to be too up close and personal with the officers with hands in drains.

In fact, thinking about it some more, the whole operation (that we saw) gave off a feeling of "showing off". This just wouldn't be done unless there was a very good reason for it, IMO.

Absolutely no doubt about it, in my opinion.

11 June 2014 - The final search day

Scotland Yard detectives bring in sniffer dogs to scour two new areas of land to the east of Praia da Luz. One, an area of scrubland, near a near a water treatment plant, and the other, directly across the same Luz to Lagos road, an area known as Quinta da Luz. Video footage exists of GNR officers searching the same area in May 2007 with sniffer dogs.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id494.html

Regarding ,the behind sofa where dog went and elerted to cadaver scent . Is it possible that infact maybe no body had been in that spot at all . Like with the dog going into the corner of bedroom and barking there ,its been said by mr grimes ,that the dog barking in that place ,didn't mean only that space ,as it often will collect in one area.? I just suddenly had that thought for first time tonight. joyce1938

Have you a link for Martin Grimes saying that please Joyce as your not the first to suggest this tumbleweed effect....

I am sorry bampots ,no I have no refence I can show you,but I have seen it a few times ,I am sure others will have too. It just might be on the video of mr grimeswhen he took the dogs in ?joyce1938

Thanks Joyce. This implies Cadaverine acts like a gas and has substance...i have heard someone else today talk of this.....so if you come across the link,please share....

Bampots wrote:Thanks Joyce. This implies Cadaverine acts like a gas and has substance...i have heard someone else today talk of this.....so if you come across the link,please share....

It's in the PJ files:

"Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

This is interesting:

"Outside perimeter of apartments

We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


Has there been further examination since? I vaguely remember something about a trail to a parking lot.

seahorse wrote:This is interesting:



Has there been further examination since? I vaguely remember something about a trail to a parking lot.

Was this not referring to the GNR sniffer dogs brought in early doors?

This from the Daily Mail which gets its facts wrong as usual.

Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment and followed a trail some 100 yards to a nearby car park – where British tourist Derek Flack told police he had seen a man staring at the McCanns' flat.
But the dogs were not used until May 8 – five days after Madeleine's disappearance – despite their handlers advising that the search should be done within 48 hours.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1042254/Aerial-photo-shows-sniffer-dog-trail-following-Madeleines-scent-took-nearby-car-park.html#ixzz42NsuoeAy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

This from the files where it is clear that the dogs were first deployed at 2am on the 4th

On 4th May, after having evaluated the situation surrounding the disappearance, the Lagos Post Commander ordered searches for the child to take place and contacted officers who were at home, forming a force of nine officers who searched during the night and early morning.

2. At 02.00 they arrived at P da L and began searching with the Portimao sniffer dog teams, the terrain searches were extended until the morning with the dogs and officers on the scene, as well as the night guard and local people who volunteered to help in the searches that took place throughout the night.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm&ved=0ahUKEwiV34WG-bLLAhWFQJoKHXDJAGcQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNEnZfxhWwditUDdWaIN8zazOHeNEA

No mention of losing the trail in a car park so was that a TM plant to suggest she may have been taken away by car?