Capabilities of the Dogs

Well my memory is playing tricks,I was convinced one trail finished at the Baptista supermarket.

Thanks for the bits about Cadaverine and its movement in rooms seahorse. I recognise this now I've seen it.

Another important point to make is that death (whether behind the sofa or anywhere else) is not dependent upon the discovery of blood

Trying to argue that the blood splatters must have been from Maddie,  or that there was a conspiracy to hide the fact, just undermines the case

It is quite possible for someone to die and not leave a blood trail

Keela found microscopic blood spots whose origin has not been proved and could be many things. At least one of those spots cannot possibly have been from M because it was in the adhesive beneath the tile

Why not just accept that and recognise that Keela's contribution, while invaluable from an overall perspective, may not have been relevant on this occasion?

I have said that the FSS report muddied the water and was ambiguous as to what fluids were and who they belonged to(see yesterday's posts)
No one that I know of claims that death needs bloody marks.
Adhesive on tiles is known as grout.....it is porous.....need I say more.
As for the dogs...who knows.....ask Gerry?

chirpyinsect wrote:

seahorse wrote:This is interesting:



Has there been further examination since? I vaguely remember something about a trail to a parking lot.

Was this not referring to the GNR sniffer dogs brought in early doors?

<snipped>

Yes, you're right the GNR sniffer dogs trailed to a parking lot.

But it seems that Eddie showed some interest when they searched the outer perimeter.

"We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I'm wondering if there has been further examination since.

What's this about?



In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.

Bampots wrote:
Adhesive on tiles is known as grout.....it is porous.....need I say more.
As for the dogs...who knows.....ask Gerry?

@ Bampots

the blood would have needed to penetrate the grout, leaving no trace, except for one microscopic spot found by Keela in the adhesive underneath the middle of the tile. It's impossible

The problem is that we've all been led up the garden path over the years by rumours and faulty logic

If joyce1938 is correct, and the cadaver smell may accumulate in a corner of a room (and may have come from clothing rather than a corpse anyway), and there is no evidence that the blood on the wall is Maddie's, it's clear where this is all going

There is no reason to believe that she died in that room at all. And the falling off the sofa theory is just speculation

Don't misunderstand me - Eddie detected cadaver and there's a good chance it came from Maddie. But we are in danger of looking in the wrong place, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons

Time to start again?

seahorse wrote:

chirpyinsect wrote:

seahorse wrote:This is interesting:



Has there been further examination since? I vaguely remember something about a trail to a parking lot.

Was this not referring to the GNR sniffer dogs brought in early doors?

<snipped>

Yes, you're right the GNR sniffer dogs trailed to a parking lot.

But it seems that Eddie showed some interest when they searched the outer perimeter.

"We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I'm wondering if there has been further examination since.

Would that be the veranda and the flower bed then?

chirpyinsect wrote:[Would that be the veranda and the flower bed then?

Yes, that's very possible.

I think that the first dogs on the scene was with the portuguse police ,they were tracker dogs ,tryng to find which way she may have been Carried away.infact some evidence was smelt ,and suddenly stopped . I know that Gerry told of a time the girls ran away from him ,so maybe that was what was followed?just an idea . If its a not often used lane .I read that the smells can hang around for a time . The first dogs ofcourse were only given a towel to smell bsfore searching ,that first night .No personal clothing ,that got swiftly sent to laundry .So mr grimes wasn't in on that first smelling search that night ,that came a lot later. I hope my memory is serving me well. joyce1938

May o ijus ad to my last post ,that a blanket was seen by someone I THINK where you would walk towards the cliff . I said a colour pnky orange and in poor condition . It soon went ,and I did see a photo of such. can anyone else shed light on this ? joyce1938

joyce1938 wrote:May o ijus ad to my last post ,that a blanket was seen by someone I THINK where you would walk towards the cliff . I said a colour pnky orange and in poor condition . It soon went ,and I did see a photo of such. can anyone else shed light on this ?  joyce1938

Well remembered I had forgotten about this......This is it Joyce....




'Maddie lies here' The Star (South Africa)



It is in these idyllic surrounds on the Portuguese coast that Danie Krugel believes Madeleine McCann is buried. Glynnis Underhill reports



January 26, 2008 Edition 1



Former South African police superintendent Danie Krugel is haunted by the muddy pink and white child's blanket he found at the site in Praia da Luz in Portugal where he believes the body of Madeleine McCann is hidden.



Now, due to his frustration at the lack of progress in the case, the ex-cop - dubbed "The Locator" as a result of his high rate of success in tracing missing people in SA - has broken his silence about the results of his search for Madeleine last year and revealed a map of the area where he believes she is buried.



With the consent of her parents, Gerry and Kate McCann, Krugel spent three nights searching for missing Madeleine (4) in July, using the Matter Oriented System (MOS) equipment he has developed.



The site he outlined to be searched for Madeleine's body is a wasteland, full of black refuse bags, building rubble and rocks, and is located only 900m away from the Ocean Club resort apartment where the McCann family were staying in Praia da Luz.



Krugel said sniffer dogs and a full forensic team should have searched the area, but this had not happened.



"[b]I kick myself every day that I didn't pick up the blanket. I just didn't want to disturb the investigation. The blanket was full of mud and had a light white, light-pink colour, and it was definitely a child's blanket.[/b]



"It was also clear that it had been in the elements for a while. I showed the police the blanket but I don't know if they picked it up," he added.



Taking a hair from Madeleine's coat, which was given to him by her father, Krugel's equipment repeatedly gave him signals that led him to the site, which is within walking distance of the apartment. Madeleine is alleged to have been kidnapped while her parents dined at a nearby tapas bar.



Krugel said he gave a copy of the map to Madeleine's parents and to the Portuguese police at the time, but refused to disclose details of his findings to the press for fear of anyone trying to disturb the scene. Now he wants to return to Praia da Luz to see if his equipment indicates that Madeleine's body is still there - or if it has been moved.



Asked whether he would like Krugel to return to search for Madeleine, Gerry McCann said he had no say in the matter.



"Kate and I have no control over who is allowed to go come and go into Portugal.



"This is a matter for the Portuguese authorities. Officially I cannot comment further, sorry."



After his search, Krugel requested the Portuguese police to use sniffer dogs and a forensic team to search the area. But when they were brought in a few weeks after he left Portugal, the sniffer dogs picked up a scent on Kate McCann and in the hired car, which changed the focus of the investigation, he claimed.



Portuguese police have now named three suspects in the case: Gerry and Kate McCann and Praia da Luz resident Robert Murat.



"After the sniffer dogs were brought in, I think the police altered their line of investigation, and I don't believe they searched the area I gave them.



"I am almost 90% sure Madeleine is dead. There is always the slight possibility that she could be held hostage in one of the houses in the area on my map, but I feel this is very unlikely. If her body had been moved, my equipment would tell me she is no longer there."



With 16 years' experience in policing cult-related violent crime, Krugel has devoted his life to finding missing people - free of charge.



"When children disappear, what is important is what went through the child's mind. A child is supposed to be safe and protected. When I first saw Madeleine's face in the paper, I could see this child had an angel's face. Immediately I wanted to catch the person who took this child. There is somebody out there who is guilty. That person belongs in a place where he must not see the blue sky."



In SA, Krugel's free services are used regularly by private investigators and police officers, who frequently call him in to help, with many insisting that he helped them locate people.



Brushing aside the sceptics, South African senior systems engineer Johan Booysen believes Krugel was "spot-on" in the co-ordinates he gave last month to locate his missing father, pilot Dirk Booysen.



The wreckage of his plane and the charred body of Dirk Booysen were found in the dense Baviaanskloof mountains shortly after Christmas.



"At first we misinterpreted his co-ordinates, but when we looked again, we saw he had been spot-on," said Booysen.



"It was very difficult terrain and Danie never gave us any false hope about my father. He just offered to help - for free - and that's what he did.



"I can see now that he was spot-on in his search. I can vouch for him and his equipment, and would be happy to talk to Madeleine's parents if they want to talk to me.'



Krugel has been in regular contact with Madeleine's parents, who have thanked him for his help. But his appeal for them to turn their attentions to the site to help find her body has not been answered.



Last year, Krugel claimed to have uncovered a "forensic route" from the McCanns' holiday apartment at the Oceans Club Resort, along paths and roads to a nearby beach.



At the time, he said: "The area is in walking distance from Praia da Luz. I don't want to say exactly where because I don't want to interfere with this investigation. I don't want to give anyone the chance to destroy his or her prints. If I look at the area, there is a very, very slight possibility that she could be alive. From the piece of hair I was able to conclude that she was in the area.'



But Krugel is still anxious to help find Madeleine, as she is constantly on his mind.



"The sooner we find Madeleine's body, the sooner the police can find out who murdered her," he said.



The locator



While he is currently working as the director of health and safety at the Central University of Technology of the Free State, Danie Krugel (right) is also trying to patent his equipment, which works on satellite technology. Details of the controversial equipment he has developed are being kept under wraps until it has been patented, he said.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id259.html

Extract from the statement of GNR officer, Carlos Manuel Carvalho Lacao:

'When they arrived at the scene, they entered the McCann's apartment by the front door, and entered the living room, where there were some PJ officers as well as the McCann couple. They just talked to some colleagues from the PJ and asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.

They began searching with the dogs from the main entrance to the apartment, having given the blanket to his dog Numi to smell and begin to search.'

Extract from the statement of creche worker, Amy Tierney:

'Madeleine's bed, she noticed, had the covers pulled back and a small child's blanket and a stuffed toy were upon it.'

Extract from statement of GNR dog handler, Antonio Freitas Silva:

The deponent states that:
• He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club.
• He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23h00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id259.html

In it the scientist reported that a sample from the boot of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car, which they rented 24 days after Madeleine went missing, contained 15 out of 19 of the young girl's DNA components.

Advertisement

But he cautioned the result saying "In my opinion ... this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation or inclusion."

Lowe wrote: "Let's look at the question that is being asked: 'Is there DNA from Madeleine on the swab?'

"It would be very simple to say 'yes' simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

"What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine - because Madeleine has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeleine merely appears to match the result by chance


So i posted yesterday several times on spot 3a - 3b,which as indicated by John Lowe (regardless of 3a,3b being separate....they are the same....different test criteria) contained Madeleine's DNA. And here he says above ......it would be simple to say yes etc.....or whether Madeleine merely appears to match the results by chance.

Let's think about this,does John think of all DNA in these terms. We are told the odds are millions to one for these tests and people are sent to prison on the back of them......what's different here!?

I seem to remember that dna from under the tiles was reported as possibly coming from one of the policemen who lifted them. Source PJ files
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm&ved=0ahUKEwiTh6jOrbPLAhUhj3IKHfPzCN0QFggcMAE&usg=AFQjCNEVpKoMxuW_t9Cx_FFihMpL198c2w


Service Information 1 August 2007
By Joao Direito, Inspector

Recovery of possible trace evidence

I bring to your attention in accordance with instructions received, that today, around 20h00, LPC Assistant Specialists Fernando Viegas and Lino Rodrigues, after seeing recorded images relating to the canine inspection conducted on 31 July 2007 in apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, duly explained in an official statement in the case file, they proceeded to collect [recover] the floor tiles where the dogs used in the activity indicated [alerted to] the possible existence of blood traces along with the position of a cadaver in that location.
Those tiles were lifted from the floor, in a way to preserve the possible traces intact for them to be subjected to examination by an authorised laboratory...
END.

I have found no reference in the lab reports to the dna of a policeman being under the tiles but did find this on Textusa.

286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment
A mixed DNA result, apparently originating from at least two persons, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material present in the combined swabs. In my opinion, there are no indications that justify [confirm/prove] the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to this result. In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.

Bampots wrote:In it the scientist reported that a sample from the boot of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car, which they rented 24 days after Madeleine went missing, contained 15 out of 19 of the young girl's DNA components.

This page lists the forensics that were taken in the Scenic. Mainly hair, fibres and nails:  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm

None of those would in themselves indicate a crime or death

Blood in the boot and on the car key. I didn't realise Maddie had a driving licence

Even if a hair proved to Maddie's, it could have been transferred from clothing etc

Where does it say there was human blood connected to Maddie in the boot of the car?

I'm only interested in official documents, not stuff made up by journalists

Thanks

From PJ FILES


The Renault Scenic vehicle ? number plate 59-DA-27 was removed to the third floor of the underground car park and was subjected to a forensic search by officers from the Scientific Police Laboratory and another sniffer dog inspection that began at 03.49 on 7th August by the dog KEELA, which detected human blood remains, the following results were noted:

03.53 ? the dog ?marked? a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;

04.11 ? the dog 'marked' the compartment on the driver's side, which was seen to contain the vehicle's key, of a plastic electronic card type, with a key ring from the Budget car rental agency.

With the aim of confirming whether the dog had effectively ?marked? the vehicle's key, which was inside the compartment on the driver's side, at 04.13 the key in question was removed from the vehicle and hidden in a place far from the vehicle on the third floor of the underground car park.

At about 04.14 it was observed that the dog ?marked? the area of a box containing sand from the Fire Service, underneath which, effectively, the vehicle's key had been hidden.

At approximately 04.50 a new sniffer dog inspection was carried out using the dog EDDY which detects cadaver odour, using the vehicle key which for this purpose was hidden on the fourth floor of the underground car park, far away from the vehicle.

At about 04.51, it was observed that the dog ?marked? the area of the box containing sand from the Fire Service, underneath which the key had been hidden.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm

Nothing in the report indicates a crime or a death. They are just the professional opinion of the now disbanded FSS. They together with the evidence collated by firstly the PJ and latterly OG form the case they have at present,one we cannot know. Both your and my amateur thoughts on this matter are simply ......opinion.

I do remember reading either an article or Goncalo interview where it was said that samples had been sent to Spain?  Ironside/Steel Magnolia may have some details on the blog (I do remember discussion on this on 3A's I think or perhaps MCF)... if it is still going as she passed away a couple of years ago. 

Samples IIRC also went to the Portuguese lab - again read a long time ago.

Neveronasunday wrote:

Bampots wrote:In it the scientist reported that a sample from the boot of the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire car, which they rented 24 days after Madeleine went missing, contained 15 out of 19 of the young girl's DNA components.

This page lists the forensics that were taken in the Scenic. Mainly hair, fibres and nails:  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm

None of those would in themselves indicate a crime or death

Blood in the boot and on the car key. I didn't realise Maddie had a driving licence

Even if a hair proved to Maddie's, it could have been transferred from clothing etc

Where does it say there was human blood connected to Maddie in the boot of the car?

I'm only interested in official documents, not stuff made up by journalists

Thanks

Key card: both Eddie and Keela alerted to it, so it's definitely blood, but could also be blood and cadaver scent.

"A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)). This sample has not been sent for further testing using LCN DNA profiling tests."

Boot: Eddie alerted in the general direction and Keela alerted inside the boot. So there was definitely blood in the boot, but whose blood is anyone's guess.

"An attempt to obtain an LCN DNA result from any cellular material on the swab from area one of the luggage compartment section (286C/2007 CRL 10) was unsuccesful in that no profile was obtained."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

The fact that Keela alerted to blood in the Scenic may mean that Eddie smelt blood in the car rather than cadaver

Some of the blood was on the car key - I would bet my house that it wasn't Maddie's

There appear to be no official documents that state the results of forensic tests on blood found in the boot, just conversations between the FSS, journalists and the PJ. Why?

Keela also found blood behind the sofa in 5a, so maybe that's what Eddie smelt there too

But once again there is no evidence that it was Maddie's blood anyway

This is Q47 put by the PJ to K McC: When confronted with the results of Maddie’s DNA, whose analysis was carried out in a British laboratory, collected from behind the sofa and the boot of the vehicle, did you say you couldn’t explain any more than you already had?

It's a very loose question. I would like to know what substance or tissue that DNA came from. Or were the PJ chancing their arm a bit with that one?

I can't see anything here to make out a case that Maddie was either behind the sofa in 5a or in the Scenic. Am I missing something?

Interesting here re the boot of the car, sampleswere  then sent to Lisbon after being tested in UK - so as I thought, stuff was sent to Lisbon - I have also read on this link that the Portuguese asked for the samples to NOT be destroyed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm

TRANSLATION BY INES

15 Processos Vol XV Page 3891

15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3891 To: The Director INML Lisbon Ref: NUIPC 201/070 GALGS 4th Brigade Inspector Joao Carlos Date: 12th December 2007 Subject: Request for Forensic Examination I am delivering the following to you, a component covered with fibre and a plastic component, both extracted from the luggage boot of the Renault Scenic vehicle used by the parents of Madeleine McCann, material which has already been examined by the forensic lab of the FSS in Birmingham, UK and which was returned to us, requesting your collaboration in the sense of proceeding to carry out the necessary examinations of the material in question, using the appropriate methodology, bearing in mind the detection of eventual biological vestiges that might not have been detected in the first examination that they were subject to. With compliments The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Paulo Rebelo

But as far as we know nothing ever came of it

I prefer to conclude they found nothing to connect the samples with Maddie, rather than a conspiracy theory by multiple organizations to cover up the fact that she died in a bloodbath behind the sofa and the body then found its way into the boot of the Scenic three months later via a fridge

As Seahorse pointed out many pages ago on this thread, the most interesting places may be where Eddie alerted and Keela didn't

That probably indicated cadaver scent

All the stuff about blood may well be leading us in the wrong direction

From what I can see, much of the debate on forums over the years has assumed that Eddie only detected cadaver scent, and that has created all kinds of false conclusions. He also smelt blood but wasn't as precise about it as Keela because that wasn't his job

If we can't be sure of the blood being Madeleine's but trust that a cadaver was in the apartment, is it now possible to think that there is an alternative scenario? That instead of being taken out of the apartment, her body was brought in. The lack of dna, bed unmessed, no sheets on cots,Oldfield describing the wrong apartment, cuddlecat not on high shelf might point to them having lived elsewhere and used 5a to stage the abduction from. Might explain the creche sheets fiasco as names and locations were switched around.

chirpyinsect wrote:If we can't be sure of the blood being Madeleine's but trust that a cadaver was in the apartment, is it now possible to think that there is an alternative scenario? That instead of being taken out of the apartment, her body was brought in. The lack of dna, bed unmessed, no sheets on cots,Oldfield describing the wrong apartment, cuddlecat not on high shelf might point to them having lived elsewhere and used 5a to stage the abduction from. Might explain the creche sheets fiasco as names and locations were switched around.

Mrs Fenn knew there was someone letting the apartment below..  The cleaner cleaned the apartment, and a cleaner saw them.  I'm afraid a pre planned event with having another apartment, changing crèche records, telling witnesses to lie, is way beyond the scope of my imagination, too many people, too much planning, how did they manage to get 5a if they lived elsewhere?.  I think MO maybe described his own thinking it was the same, as he never went into the bedroom did he IIRC?

That is an interesting thought

If you are prepared to reconsider the evidence behind the sofa, ie that it must have been the scene of death, it opens up many new possibilities because the timelines are altered

In particular, there is no need to work out if a body could have been lying in situ long enough to develop cadaver scent on the evening of 3 May - something that has been a bone of contention for years