Capabilities of the Dogs

So putting two and two together via the Martin Roberts thread, it is possible that the body was somehow in contact with the aeroplane T-shirt (on which Eddie signalled) but that the demonstration pj's were involved because they matched the time of "abduction" in the evening

Now, why wasn't Sean seen in that T-shirt until June?

They surely wouldn't have dressed him in something that his sister had died in but there may have been cross-contamination

Neveronasunday wrote:So putting two and two together via the Martin Roberts thread, it is possible that the body was somehow in contact with the aeroplane T-shirt (on which Eddie signalled) but that the demonstration pj's were involved because they matched the time of "abduction" in the evening

Now, why wasn't Sean seen in that T-shirt until June?

They surely wouldn't have dressed him in something that his sister had died in but there may have been cross-contamination

What worries me about the red t shirt is this; if M was wearing it when she died why are there no trousers/shorts/skirt also on the list of contaminated clothing?

We need to think this through very carefully, CI, because thanks to the revised train of thought re Eddie and Keela this is the best possible sequence of events I've seen

I don't think she could have been wearing the T-shirt. Sean was wearing it in early June (and I must add to what I said earlier, possibly on other days when not photographed)

But at that stage everything looked normal and the dogs were two months away. The idea of dressing S in his deceased sister's T-shirt to confuse everybody into thinking that it wasn't M's doesn't make sense (or showed impressive foresight re what was to come)

But the T-shirt is the only item of children's clothing that is linked to Eddie so it must be a crucial clue

I would think the pjs were dragged out to reinforce the story of something happening between 8.30 and 10 in the evening, which suggests the incident happened at some other time of day

So where does the aeroplane T-shirt fit in?

Quoting the files: The clothes are spread out. Eddie marks a strong cadaver odor on Kate's clothes: slacks in black/white check and a sleeveless white blouse. He barks frenetically. Keela finds no blood vestiges.

That probably does indicate cadaver scent

We need to find out when these two items of clothing were first seen in Praia. Sadly (...... I don't mean it quite like that) I have to take the family out for the day but will do this tonight if nobody else gets there first

I am having an idea about this but it depends upon timing. The areoplane T-shirt was first photographed in early June. I wonder if the two Eddie items worn by KM were seen earlier than that? Especially if worn together - a white sleeveless top and the checked slacks

Yes and no would lead me in two different directions but they are both plausible

Developing this theme, ShininginLuz makes a very valid point. The gist of it is that the red t shirt and white top of Kate's were photographed on 4 June. These 2 items were amongst the clothing from 4g, the apartment the McCanns moved to, that Eddie alerted to but not Keela so we can assume he indicated cad scent.
Now Kate is holding A and G is holding S, so why was there no cross contamination onto A or G's clothing? There also was no alert in 4G itself.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/page/27/&ved=0ahUKEwjZorWl1LrLAhXDORQKHZjWAYoQFgguMAM&usg=AFQjCNGga2E0UeUYRzGQJHvXgAb-FOEQVg

Scroll down till you get to Madeleine 4G and the scent of death.

Other sections in the blog that are v interesting too.

The searches of the clothing were conducted on 6/7 Aug. Eddie alerted to K's white top and checked trousers and also to a red t shirt seen earlier on Sean. If those clothes had been contaminated and present in 5a Eddie would have alerted to where they were situated. The family moved to 4g on 4 May taking their clothes with them, or perhaps some were collected next day There was no alert inside 4g so I assume the clothes were never in there, or not contaminated whilst they lived there.. The Macs moved to the villa on 2 July according to G's blogs and the PJ arrived on 2nd August to take some clothing away which postponed the Huelva trip by a day though G downplays it to him having a bug. As the contaminated clothes were in the possession of the police before Huelva that dispenses with an earlier idea I had that they may have disposed of her body that day whilst Kate was wearing those clothes, then perhaps picked Sean up.
So what happened between 2 July and 2 Aug to contaminate those clothes?

I wonder just how long it takes to have cadaver transfere ,from an item ? Its I think quite a complicated subject . I have read some time ago , that from a body ,it goes through various stages ,so may already transfer before the 90 minutes ,we have heard about on here and other sites.To be close to someone that has already picked up the scent ,I am not sure would be strong scent an other articles unless it was straight away .Is there anyone here that is well versed on this subject ?. joyce1938

joyce1938 wrote:I wonder just how long it takes to have cadaver transfere ,from an item ?  Its I think quite a complicated subject . I have read some time ago , that from a body ,it goes through various stages ,so may already transfer before the 90 minutes ,we have heard about on here and other sites.To be close to someone that has already picked up the scent ,I am not sure would be strong scent an other articles unless it was straight away .Is there anyone here that is well versed on this subject ?. joyce1938

I think transfer is instant or very nearly but the 90 minutes or less refers to initial death until cadaverine develops. If someone died and you touched them immediately you wouldn't be contaminated some time after death you could be.

I just am not certain about material that if you wearing it ,how easy it is to transfer from another item ? joyce1938

IIRC the items, which were spread out for Eddie to check for cadaver scent, had been taken from the villa and packed in carton boxes. If contaminated textiles would easily contaminate others they came in contact with, he'd been barking all over the place IMO. But: I stand corrected by someone having more knowledge about this matter, of course.

Ok, suppose that cadaver-scented clothing doesn't tend to contaminate other clothing or objects

That implies that all three items of clothing probably came into direct contact with a body

The checked slacks and sleeveless top could easily be explained but the red aeroplane T-shirt is harder

M surely can't have been wearing it when (if) she died. If so, they would never have put it on S later

I suppose a body might have been placed on it  but, even then, getting S to wear it would seem grotesque

So how ever did the scent get on the red T-shirt?

After all the great contributions from other posters in the last few days I would suggest it boils down to this: Solve the mystery of how the scent got on the T-shirt and you are close to solving the whole case

I've lived under the impression that the airplane T-shirt and her little brother may be part of an indication of what has happened.
I don't think Madeleine ever wore it, but S that did back then in 5A. This takes me back to the crying episode there, as well as S seeming to be "under the influence" when they landed back in the UK. GM is holding him with one hand only. IF S would have woken up, he might have fallen backwards. Looks GM like knew he wouldn't, as he advanced the micro and read from a paper in his other hand. All IMO and speculation.

Châtelaine wrote:I've lived under the impression that the airplane T-shirt and her little brother may be part of an indication of what has happened.
I don't think Madeleine ever wore it, but S that did back then in 5A. This takes me back to the crying episode there, as well as S seeming to be "under the influence" when they landed back in the UK. GM is holding him with one hand only. IF S would have woken up, he might have fallen backwards. Looks GM like knew he wouldn't, as he advanced the micro and read from a paper in his other hand. All IMO and speculation.

Oh, Chatelaine, what a pathetic and sad image that conjures. Poor little children.

Exactly my thoughts too, Châtelaine.

Following the search of the Scenic by the dogs, Martin Grime said this in his official report to the PJ:

When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family, the dog's (Eddie) behaviour changed substantially... This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and no human remains were found... It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent.


Why then, did the PJ ask this question to KM?

Q45 She was asked about the scent of corpse which was signalled in the vehicle she hired about a month after the disappearance, with number plate 59-DA-27. She said she could not explain anything more than she already had.

Talk about a loaded question

Neveronasunday wrote:Following the search of the Scenic by the dogs, Martin Grime said this in his official report to the PJ:

When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family, the dog's (Eddie) behaviour changed substantially... This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and no human remains were found... It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent.


Why then, did the PJ ask this question to KM?

Q45  She was asked about the scent of corpse which was signalled in the vehicle she hired about a month after the disappearance, with number plate 59-DA-27. She said she could not explain anything more than she already had.

Talk about a loaded question

I think it was asked during one of her 2 interviews in Sept 07. I think the answer she gave was when she was made arguida because she had already given them the explanation about 6 corpses at work in the previous interview.
She was shown the videos of the dog alerts and texted Phil that they were going to frame her.

Well CI, it looks as if she may have been justified

We now have the PJ, Roberts and Dee Coy all pointing to the cadaver scent in the Scenic

But Grime himself says it may have been human blood scent

Oh dear

Grime's official report to the PJ was published by them on 23 August, KM was re-interviewed on 7 September

Whatever you think happened to Maddie, the least a suspect should expect in a formal interview is an accurate depiction of the facts

Neveronasunday wrote:Well CI, it looks as if she may have been justified

We now have the PJ, Roberts and Dee Coy all pointing to the cadaver scent in the Scenic

But Grime himself says it may have been human blood scent

Oh dear

Grime's official report to the PJ was published by them on 23 August, KM was re-interviewed on 7 September

Whatever you think happened to Maddie, the least a suspect should expect in a formal interview is an accurate depiction of the facts

The thing is Kate must have thought they had something because she then made excuses for why the smell was possibly there. Now if that were me and I knew there had been no dead body in the car, I would be outraged not making excuses. She also made excuses for the bodily fluids saying they may have come from M's unwashed pjs or her sandals.
I reckon there had been a body in the car. Sadly I think the PJ know that the evidence at that time wasn't strong enough. Take that to court and a good defence would anihilate it.

I respect the dogs but I don't respect a police force that deliberately misleads a suspect in a formal interview by asking a false question

By asking question 45 re Eddie, the PJ has shown itself to be less than accurate in its portrayal of events

Therefore they must have affected my trust in other things that they have said or done

The edges have also been blurred re Maddie DNA that may or not have been found in the boot

Nobody anywhere has ever proved that this DNA came from a dead Maddie rather than by transfer/contamination from a live one

nos....while I respect we should ensure we are accurate with the actulight over the dogs,cheap shots at the PJ are no more than we would expect from JATYK2. The Pj appear as fallible as lots of other police and perhaps better behaved than some of the corrupt officers we have in this country. Can you show the inaccuracy of other events,or is it your inaccurate opinion?

BP, I would like to join in to say that I agree that if I find that someone has deliberately told one fib, I tend not to trust them again, how unfair of me!

Neveronasunday wrote:I respect the dogs but I don't respect a police force that deliberately misleads a suspect in a formal interview by asking a false question

By asking question 45 re Eddie, the PJ has shown itself to be less than accurate in its portrayal of events

Therefore they must have affected my trust in other things that they have said or done

The edges have also been blurred re Maddie DNA that may or not have been found in the boot

Nobody anywhere has ever proved that this DNA came from a dead Maddie rather than by transfer/contamination from a live one

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IMO police can, especially in a serious & complicated case like this one, ask suggestive questions. Try and make a suspect slip up. Finding the truth is a very difficult labour and especially so with interviewees, who change their incoherent story of events over and over again.

BTW if you contemplate, that transfer/contamination might be from "a live one" what do you have in mind?

ETA [as many have said many times over] attempts to explain the odor in the rented car, playing them down to leaking fish, rotting meat and dirty diapers, makes one wonder about the hygiene practised by 2 professional medics ...

it's all on this thread. Grime himself said the odour in the car may have been from human blood, and he said earlier that Eddie can alert to dried blood from a live human. It's all over the internet. Stories of cadaver odour in the car were never backed up, and the DNA from Maddie could have been been from a live Maddie and transferred via eg clothing, it was only 3 weeks after she went missing that they hired the car after all. I think I've had enough of this now, we are just going round and round in circles. having another rest from this, bye all

Hellsbells wrote:it's all on this thread. Grime himself said the odour in the car may have been from human blood, and he said earlier that Eddie can alert to dried blood from a live human. It's all over the internet. Stories of cadaver odour in the car were never backed up, and the DNA from Maddie could have been been from a live Maddie and transferred via eg clothing, it was only 3 weeks after she went missing that they hired the car after all. I think I've had enough of this now, we are just going round and round in circles. having another rest from this, bye all

Bye bye again, you already said goodbye a couple of weeks ago....

PS We have gone round and round for 9 years with most aspects of this case, yet we still are here discussing....