Capabilities of the Dogs

Wow! Unbelievable, still, true colours shown there, childish.

costello wrote:Why do 'some' people get so agitated with 'The Dogs' and the 'Photo' threads. Interesting
indeed.

No one can question the dogs only the interpretation of the dogs finding's there aren't half some experts on not knowing what the dogs alerted to.

In the most recent blog by textusa they mention the Osterhelweg paper,its behind a paywall but I'm sure I read it some where,does any one know where it may be found?

Dog threads usually turn into a dogs dinner. With intention.

Dogs, Smiths, Fenn, GA, photos.. etc..

Causes problems.

Heisenburg wrote:In the most recent blog by textusa they mention the Osterhelweg paper,its behind a paywall but I'm sure I read it some where,does any one know where it may be found?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17403590&ved=0ahUKEwjkg4Dhz8PLAhUH_iwKHR3JDWYQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEDrya3y-TTTDDbSsB2LrpcJ9tU9w

Not sure if it works

chirpyinsect wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:In the most recent blog by textusa they mention the Osterhelweg paper,its behind a paywall but I'm sure I read it some where,does any one know where it may be found?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17403590&ved=0ahUKEwjkg4Dhz8PLAhUH_iwKHR3JDWYQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEDrya3y-TTTDDbSsB2LrpcJ9tU9w

Not sure if it works

Thanks chirpy,that only links to a summary,its out there somewhere.

Heisenburg wrote:

chirpyinsect wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:In the most recent blog by textusa they mention the Osterhelweg paper,its behind a paywall but I'm sure I read it some where,does any one know where it may be found?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17403590&ved=0ahUKEwjkg4Dhz8PLAhUH_iwKHR3JDWYQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEDrya3y-TTTDDbSsB2LrpcJ9tU9w

Not sure if it works

Thanks chirpy,that only links to a summary,its out there somewhere.

Hi Heisenburg.

I've found a search that downloads the pdf of the report. Can't link directly because that just starts another download to my device. You need to google

ksgarvin file

..exactly like that and the first search return is a pdf called Forensic Science International. Click on that and it will download the file direct to your computer.

Dee Coy wrote:
Hi Heisenburg.

I've found a search that downloads the pdf of the report. Can't link directly because that just starts another download to my device. You need to google

ksgarvin file

..exactly like that and the first search return is a pdf called Forensic Science International. Click on that and it will download the file direct to your computer.

Thanks Dee Coy,unfortunately I can't open the blessed thing once downloaded.

Found it.

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

Heisenburg wrote:Found it.

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

I wonder if a search of G's computer would have thrown up a search for this.

chirpyinsect wrote:Developing this theme, ShininginLuz makes a very valid point. The gist of it is that the red t shirt and white top of Kate's were photographed on 4 June. These 2 items were amongst the clothing from 4g, the apartment the McCanns moved to, that Eddie alerted to but not Keela so we can assume he indicated cad scent.
Now Kate is holding A and G is holding S, so why was there no cross contamination onto A or G's clothing? There also was no alert in 4G itself.

I am not an expert but I'm not sure that the scent of death can easily be transferred from an item of clothing just by touching another one. The smell may be too deep in the fibres
However, I would guess that transfer of the scent might occur if they were in the wash together

If so, that could mean that the red shirt, white top and check slacks plus cuddlecat were all washed together and that only one of them was originally contaminated. Just an idea I had. Only speculation but if they were hand washed and the washing water was thrown out to wash down the verandah it would explain why the smell was out there too

That's an interesting thought, contamination from one between others, amongst which the "pants of ganga".

But would anyone, seriously throw the washing water onto the veranda and plants in the garden below? And not just into the sink?

Châtelaine wrote:That's an interesting thought, contamination from one between others, amongst which the "pants of ganga".

But would anyone, seriously throw the washing water onto the veranda and plants in the garden below? And not just into the sink?

If they were trying to get rid of the smell from say the trousers and Kate's top which was white, why would she wash a red top, not associated with the smell and which could dye the white top in the same water?

Had a quick gander on the Mc Twitter hash tag and saw reference to this case - which never heard of before.

Dog Debate At Center Of Murder Case

Can a dog's nose be trusted enough to send a man to prison for the rest of his life?

That's a key question a jury may have to consider if Walker County Superior Court Judge Jon Wood allows certain testimony to be heard during the murder trial of Sam Parker next month. Judge Wood is holding a pre-trial motions hearing this week to decide what the jury will and won't hear.

Parker, a former sergeant with the LaFayette Police Department, is being held without bond accused of murdering his wife Teresa. She seemingly vanished more than two years ago leaving behind a family and career with Walker County 911. There is no evidence she has died, a body was never found and investigators have not found a murder weapon.

During a second day of testimony about so-called cadaver dogs, two specialists in that field explained how their dogs "hit" on a scent in Walker County that they say could be from a decomposing human body.

Lisa Higgins with the Louisiana Search & Rescue Dog Team said she was asked and paid to bring her Australian Shepherd "Maggie" to LaFayette to investigate a car being kept at the Walker County Sheriff's Department impound lot.

"Almost immediately I gave the command and she hit really hard, worked very, very hard inside the wheel well on the front driver's side and gave a full indication right there," Higgins said.

Higgins added Maggie also got excited about something when she sniffed around the back door on the passenger side of the car. But there is no evidence about what it was that excited Maggie and investigators so far have said they have not found any evidence to corroborate the dog's "hit."

Higgins said Maggie has been trained to sniff out the scent of a decomposing human body. But Maggie and other similar dogs can also "hit" on a decomposing pig, which testimony shows has the same odor and chemical make-up as a human cadaver.

Defense attorney Doug Woodruff asked Higgins about the accuracy of Maggie's nose and if there is any scientific proof that shows these type of dogs only get aroused by cadavers.

"Scientifically, no," Higgins replied.

Upon further cross examination Higgins said Maggie has only shown accuracy on occasions when other physical evidence points to where a body has been dumped.

We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.

During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.

"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.

During lengthy cross-examination Grime said there is no evidence to show Eddie smelled anything incriminating against or linked to Mr. Parker. Like Higgins, Grime said cadaver dogs can only prove useful when there is other evidence that corroborates the dog's "hits."

The FBI has a keen interest in the outcome of this case. If Parker is convicted the case could pave the legal way for future prosecutions where there is no evidence other than dog "hits" in connection with a person accused of murder.

Toward the end of the day Judge Wood learned that while Grime has international acclaim he has never testified as an expert witness in the United States.

Testimony ended Tuesday with a couple Georgia Bureau of Investigation agents saying Mr. Parker has always been cooperative with the investigation and allowed them to do whatever they wanted on his property.

A third day of testimony begins at 9:00 a.m. Wednesday.

http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/mccann-theresa-parker-martin-grime-and.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/theresa-parkers-body-found-in-ga-911-dispatcher-went-missing-in-2007/

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/23/georgia.body.found/

Just show's how unreliable Eddie was,not.

@poster

I have moved your post here as it was off topic..  The latest news thread is not for theories...

poster wrote:

Heisenburg wrote:

Satsuma wrote:

poster wrote:

I don't think the McCanns have a leg to stand on in this respect. Empty threats. In any event, there is no evidence that Detective Amaral is wrong. Non whatsoever.

Whereas there is considerable EVIDENCE that the McCanns and their friends lied about what happened that week. Inconsistent eye-witness accounts; unjemmied shutters and so much more. And there is NO evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted.

Whereas there is evidence, from the dogs, that a body was in apartment 5A at some stage plus also in the hire car. There is also evidence of blood in the apartment and the hire car.

Early sniffer dogs also became highly agitated outside apartment 5J - which was later examined and found to contain a fridge with the door open and rotting food inside. The dogs are highly trained not to respond to anything apart what they are trained to alert to. Although these were search and rescue dogs rather than blood or cadaver dogs, nevertheless something agitated them and it wouldn't have been rotting food but something much more sinister, imo.

Actually poster,  nearly everything you wrote there is untrue or irrelevant, except the bit about no evidence she was abducted

Can you tell us then what the dogs alerted to in 5a?

Detective Amaral thinks Madeleine died and her parents concealed the body. He thinks it may have been stored in cold storage (fridge/freezer) as fluids were found in the hire car which the McCanns hired 3 weeks later which would be consistent with that.

Early 'search and rescue' sniffer dogs became very agitated outside apartment 5J. When it was searched it was found to have an empty fridge (fridge/freezer?) with the door open and rotting food inside. This has all the hallmarks of a 'staging', imo, and the laying of false scent. If Madeleine died that week the Mcs would have had to remove her body from apartment 5A (or wherever it is they were staying if not 5A) quite quickly. I would imagine at first to somewhere nearby until a plan was made. Apartment 5A was empty. Not impossible that the body was stored here. And the search and rescue dogs picked up the scent of cadaver. Although they did not 'alert' because they are not trained to alert to cadaver scent, nevertheless the scent they alerted to would not just have been rotting food, imo. They are too well trained for that. However they could have become very agitated if it had been cadaver scent.

Satsuma post moved here.

Satsuma wrote:

poster wrote:

Satsuma wrote:

poster wrote:

I don't think the McCanns have a leg to stand on in this respect. Empty threats. In any event, there is no evidence that Detective Amaral is wrong. Non whatsoever.

Whereas there is considerable EVIDENCE that the McCanns and their friends lied about what happened that week. Inconsistent eye-witness accounts; unjemmied shutters and so much more. And there is NO evidence that Madeleine McCann was abducted.

Whereas there is evidence, from the dogs, that a body was in apartment 5A at some stage plus also in the hire car. There is also evidence of blood in the apartment and the hire car.

Early sniffer dogs also became highly agitated outside apartment 5J - which was later examined and found to contain a fridge with the door open and rotting food inside. The dogs are highly trained not to respond to anything apart what they are trained to alert to. Although these were search and rescue dogs rather than blood or cadaver dogs, nevertheless something agitated them and it wouldn't have been rotting food but something much more sinister, imo.

Actually poster,  nearly everything you wrote there is untrue or irrelevant, except the bit about no evidence she was abducted

Really satsuma? Is that so? Which bits are untrue? The shutters were jemmied were they? The TM statements were consistent were they?

Do you deny that sniffer dogs detected cadaver in the apartment and the hire car? Because they did. Early sniffer dogs also became very agitated around apartment 5J. This also is FACT in the police files.

So it is you who is not talking the truth.

I explained this to you once before, poster, but I will have one more go:  Eddie detected cadaver scent in certain places. That does not mean a body was in those places. If you don't understand what I mean by that, you are going to get a lot of things wrong. Amaral made that mistake too, so I suppose you are in good company
In addition, different eye witness accounts are often inconsistent.  It doesn't mean the witnesses are lying
Search and rescue dogs are  trained to track what they are trained to track (eg human scent ), they won't be agitated by anything else
So, my friend, I am afraid you are leading other "posters" astray. Please reconsider

Chatelaine post moved here...

Satsuma wrote: [...] Eddie detected cadaver scent in certain places. That does not mean a body was in those places. If you don't understand what I mean by that, you are going to get a lot of things wrong. Amaral made that mistake too, so I suppose you are in good company [...]

***
Serious question, Satsuma: if there hadn't been a body, where did the cadaver scent in the master bedroom come from? A scent so strong, that it was detected after months ...

Chatelaine, consider this theoretical scenario: a body is lying on a piece of material for several hours. That piece of material is later moved to another location. A cadaver dog would then detect cadaver on the material in the new location,  and maybe even in a wardrobe in the new location where the material has been stored. It does not mean that there was a body in the second location. It is poor logic and therefore  misleading to suggest that there must have been

Could you elaborate on that theory? E.g. which body was stored on which material and then incidentally brought to an apartment where someone had "disappeared"?

So Sat do you think that a body could have been in Robert Murats property in a van? Hence body on property but no Cadaverine?

Châtelaine wrote:Could you elaborate on that theory? E.g. which body was stored on which material and then incidentally brought to an apartment where someone had "disappeared"?

I don't have a theory, I  was just disproving the incorrect conclusion that there must have been a body in 5A. And who said "stored"? Oh it was you not me

Bampots wrote:So Sat do you think that a body could have been in Robert Murats property in a van? Hence body on property but no Cadaverine?

I don't have a theory but if there was a body somewhere in the sequence (and Eddie indicated that there was) it could have been elsewhere and the cadaver scent transferred via clothing for example. The body need not have been in 5A

... and this piece of clothing just happened to fall behind the settee