Re: Capabilities of the Dogs

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 2:24 pm

Back from a splendid lunch - main course Duck a L'Orange, a slice of Lemon Drizzle cake and a small glass of Cointreau - perfect. Ready to resume battle, so here goes

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 2:26 pm

AndyB wrote:
Satsuma wrote:Washing water would contain molecules of cadaverine. Mrs Insect - sinks get washed with bleach. As for the basket/whatever used to transfer the washing, no idea. Three months passed before the dogs moved in. On the other hand, putting a bag down would transfer nothing if you are talking about a blue tennis one - it would have been lined. It isn't obvious that a body was in the apartment however much you may say it. You can't even agree how this body died in the first place
So, molecules of cadaverine that are present in washing water hang around in flower beds waiting to be discovered by Eddie, whereas molecules of cadaverine in washing machines, washing baskets, sinks, work surfaces, tables and all the other places where washing is placed all magically disappear?

Remind me not to come round to your place for tea Andy - you obviously don't clean your house properly, But I wouldn't expect you to disinfect the flower bed, so don't worry about that

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 2:28 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:
Satsuma wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:Still waiting for the answer to where the body may have been stored
You will be waiting for that answer for a long time because until you prove there was a body in and around the apartment on May 3rd, I won't be answering it
Where did I say 3 May?

You didn't. But for the idea of hiding a body to make sense, the accident or whatever happened would have to have occurred on May 3rd. If it had happened earlier, the body would have been whisked away miles out into the country long before the Tapas meal

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 2:31 pm

bluebell wrote:Just from my simplistic view - I wonder why Sat is getting so much attention ?

Regards Sat - we are all entitled to our opinions, theories and interpretations as I am sure you will agree.

On the other hand an individual (referring to you here Sat) who has the time and inclination to disagree or query so many points and seems to believe they alone are correct ..... well......the word dogmatic springs to mind (don't you just love the dogs!!)

Discussion is wonderful, different people putting different points forward for consideration, the benefits of a forum indeed. Who is trying to convince whom here, that's what I'd like to know.

No offence intended of course and I am sure it won't be taken, but what exactly are you trying to achieve ? Unanimous agreement to your point of view, or supplying positive, factual points - or is it just another personal interpretation of the information we have ?

Oh, and by the way I AM GERRY

It was a lovely year for bluebells around my way but I've had enough of them by this time in May. Still, thanks for your observations. By the way, I'm not convinced I'm right, but I am convinced that most people posting on this thread are making far too many assumptions

chirpyinsect Wed 18 May 2016, 2:41 pm

Here's how to remove the smell of a dead body. I doubt it would pass Eddie's sniff test but maybe the Macs got this stuff at Batista.

How to Remove Dead Body Odors

When removing odor caused by a dead body, including animal and human carcasses, it is recommended that full personal protective equipment (PPE) including gloves, bloodborne pathogen coveralls w/ boots, and goggles be worn.

*It is advisable that all porous items and surfaces that came into contact with bodily fluids be discarded as bio-hazardous waste (contact the local EPA office or OSHA office for biohazard waste disposal information for your location).
METHOD ONE: VERY HEAVY ODORS

Remove entire carcass.
Into a pump up sprayer, mix two (2) ounces of Unsmoke Last Resort with eight ( Cool

ounces of Unsmoke Liqui-Zone. Fill with water to make one gallon of solution.
Spray all affected areas. Unsmoke Liqui-Zone is an oxidizing agent and must touch all affected areas to be effective.
Evacuate the area of all living things (plants, people, and pets), and use an ozone machine for 24-48 hours.
It may be necessary to seal surfaces that have come into direct contact with odor-causing organisms with B-I-N shellac-based primer-sealer.
METHOD TWO: LIGHT OR MODERATE ODORS

Remove entire carcass.
Into a pump up sprayer, add 6.5 ounces of Unsmoke Liqui-Zone and then fill with water to make one gallon of solution.
Using a pump-up sprayer or ULV fogger, spray all affected areas. If applying Liqui-Zone to fabrics, a fine mist is suggested. Unsmoke Liqui-Zone is an oxidizing agent and must touch all affected areas to be effective.
Evacuate the area of all living things (plants, people, and pets), and use an ozone machine for 24-48 hours.
It may be necessary to seal surfaces that have come into direct contact with odor-causing organisms with B-I-N shellac-based primer-sealer.

chirpyinsect Wed 18 May 2016, 2:53 pm

Satsuma wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:
Satsuma wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:Still waiting for the answer to where the body may have been stored
You will be waiting for that answer for a long time because until you prove there was a body in and around the apartment on May 3rd, I won't be answering it
Where did I say 3 May?
You didn't. But for the idea of hiding a body to make sense, the accident or whatever happened would have to have occurred on May 3rd. If it had happened earlier, the body would have been whisked away miles out into the country long before the Tapas meal

Why would they not need to hide a body whichever day the death occurred? There is very strong intelligence that there was a body at some stage isn't there? So even if it all happened on the Saturday night, someone died that week and a body had to be removed. You have been trying to say , I think, that there may not have ever been a body in 5a.Dud I get this right?
Now where we do agree is, given earlier death, the body would have been removed long before the alarm. But how was it removed from 5a? In what? By whom? And when?
Cadaver dogs do not discern when death took place or who died.

AndyB Wed 18 May 2016, 3:03 pm

Satsuma wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Satsuma wrote:Washing water would contain molecules of cadaverine. Mrs Insect - sinks get washed with bleach. As for the basket/whatever used to transfer the washing, no idea. Three months passed before the dogs moved in. On the other hand, putting a bag down would transfer nothing if you are talking about a blue tennis one - it would have been lined. It isn't obvious that a body was in the apartment however much you may say it. You can't even agree how this body died in the first place
So, molecules of cadaverine that are present in washing water hang around in flower beds waiting to be discovered by Eddie, whereas molecules of cadaverine in washing machines, washing baskets, sinks, work surfaces, tables and all the other places where washing is placed all magically disappear?
Remind me not to come round to your place for tea Andy - you obviously don't clean your house properly, But I wouldn't expect you to disinfect the flower bed, so don't worry about that

Lol. That's the best you can do?

We're not talking about me or my house though are we? We're talking about Eddie's alerts to cadeverine that you agree are genuine. The only thing in dispute is the source of the cadaverine. I'll ask it again but I know you'll ignore me because you have no sensible coherent answer: Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the most likely explanation for the alerts is that there was a body in the places that Eddie alerted?

Andrew Wed 18 May 2016, 3:14 pm

Satsuma wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Satsuma wrote:So you think there was a body in the flower bed? What a strange place to leave a body

Not necessarily if you heard someone coming your way and you had to put the body down briefly.

Or leave it in a bag outside until the coast was clear.

Or something similar to that...

Right, so we now have somebody wandering around with a body in their arms, what a lovely scenario
OR... if the body was in a bag, how did the cadaverine smell penetrate the bag and leave scent on the flower bed that was detectable 3 months later?

Far from a 'lovely' scenario as you stated. A desperate scenario, then yes.

As I believe the Smiths, then it is my personal belief that Gerry was hastily carrying a body (Madeleine) away from the scene.

The scent on the flower bed was quite vague if I remember rightly. Hypothetically speaking, then if you were in a panic and were about to leave the scene but then heard or saw someone approaching or nearby, then you might decide to temporarily place the body down in say a flower bed, out of sight, until the you were sure you had a clear run out.

Likewise with the bag/holdall scenario. If that had to be placed down somewhere, say in a flower bed, but then you had a change of mind and decided it would be too heavy to carry as you normally would a holdall, and would be more riskier and slower struggling with it so decided to remove the body and carry it is if it was a sleeping child which would be easier and quicker....

I personally believe it was all last minute panic stuff.

And I don't like referring to Madeleine as a 'body'. I feel uneasy doing that but that's my personal thoughts on what possibly happened that night.

Heisenburg Wed 18 May 2016, 3:48 pm

Satsuma wrote:Time up!

Chatelaine, I too have complete faith in the dogs but their responses have to be interpreted correctly

Only if you are an expert,now if you can provide a cite pertaining to your excellence in this field then what ever you write might have some meaning,until then you are in first place as chief bullshitter.

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 3:52 pm

AndyB wrote:We're not talking about me or my house though are we? We're talking about Eddie's alerts to cadeverine that you agree are genuine. The only thing in dispute is the source of the cadaverine. I'll ask it again but I know you'll ignore me because you have no sensible coherent answer: Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the most likely explanation for the alerts is that there was a body in the places that Eddie alerted?

Because we are looking for proof, and you haven't come up with any. It's one of the possible scenarios, but there are others. "Most likely" doesn't win court cases, sorry

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 3:55 pm

Heisenburg wrote:
Satsuma wrote:Time up!
Chatelaine, I too have complete faith in the dogs but their responses have to be interpreted correctly
Only if you are an expert,now if you can provide a cite pertaining to your excellence in this field then what ever you write might have some meaning,until then you are in first place as chief bullshitter.

Burger mate, I gave everyone an hour to show me where in the PJ Files it mentions possible frozen corpse in the boot of the Scenic. There's nothing. Only Amaral suggested it as "speculation" (his words). While I am not an expert on forensics, I have been able to read since I was 4. And there's nothing about it in the PJ Files. Nothing, nada, rien

Also, for one last time (altogether now, join in if you've heard this before):
Keela only = blood
Eddie and Keela = blood or cadaver (could be both, but may be blood only because Grime said Eddie alerted to dried human blood as well as cadaver)
Eddie only = cadaver

Heisenburg Wed 18 May 2016, 4:04 pm

Satsuma wrote:
Heisenburg wrote:
Satsuma wrote:Time up!
Chatelaine, I too have complete faith in the dogs but their responses have to be interpreted correctly
Only if you are an expert,now if you can provide a cite pertaining to your excellence in this field then what ever you write might have some meaning,until then you are in first place as chief bullshitter.
Burger mate, I gave everyone an hour to show me where in the PJ Files it mentions possible frozen corpse in the boot of the Scenic. There's nothing. Only Amaral suggested it as "speculation" (his words). While I am not an expert on forensics, I have been able to read since I was 4. And there's nothing about it in the PJ Files. Nothing, nada, rien

Also, for one last time (altogether now, join in if you've heard this before):
Keela only = blood
Eddie and Keela = blood or cadaver (could be both, but may be blood only because Grime said Eddie alerted to dried human blood as well as cadaver)
Eddie only = blood

I'm not on about a frozen corpes,I'm asking where your expertise is in EVRD's and how you interpret their findings.

A learned judge is quite willing to accept the obviously written evidence contained in the files,Grime never gave evidence to the McCann V Amaral case,what as not been determined is to whom these alerts belonged to.

Proven facts no 6 and 7.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

chirpyinsect Wed 18 May 2016, 4:05 pm

On the subject of covering up smells so the dogs can't detect it

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thiry-six years old.

And this from GA's book.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it’s impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

I would think GA would have double checked this fact before writing the book.

AndyB Wed 18 May 2016, 4:09 pm

Satsuma wrote:
AndyB wrote:We're not talking about me or my house though are we? We're talking about Eddie's alerts to cadeverine that you agree are genuine. The only thing in dispute is the source of the cadaverine. I'll ask it again but I know you'll ignore me because you have no sensible coherent answer: Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the most likely explanation for the alerts is that there was a body in the places that Eddie alerted?
Because we are looking for proof, and you haven't come up with any. It's one of the possible scenarios, but there are others. "Most likely" doesn't win court cases, sorry

Who says we're looking for proof? What proof have you offered?

Incidentally, "most likely" does win court cases in the civil courts where its referred to as "on the balance of probablilities"

Andrew Wed 18 May 2016, 4:29 pm

Chirps, as you mentioned Keela, can you (or anyone else) list the places/items that Keela alerted to.

Just Keela's (blood) alerts.

Thanks. (On phone now so can't do it myself)

chirpyinsect Wed 18 May 2016, 4:53 pm

Andrew wrote:Chirps, as you mentioned Keela, can you (or anyone else) list the places/items that Keela alerted to.

Just Keela's (blood) alerts.

Thanks. (On phone now so can't do it myself)

The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

This refers to Eddie.

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. Also Eddie

The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas
on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was
in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely
presence of human blood.

The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for
laboratory analysis.

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 5:02 pm

AndyB wrote:Who says we're looking for proof? What proof have you offered?

There, in a nutshell, is the reason that you're getting nowhere, along with nearly everyone else on here. You want to accuse but you have no proof. I don't need proof because I'm not claiming I know what happened, I'm just showing how flimsy your argument is

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 5:04 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach.

Fantastic, just fantastic. Unfortunately, as you well know, I was referring to Eddie. The cadaver dog. You know the one? Not be confused with the blood dog. Nice attempt to confuse everyone though

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 5:07 pm

Heisenburg wrote:I'm not on about a frozen corpes,I'm asking where your expertise is in EVRD's and how you interpret their findings.

I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours

Andrew Wed 18 May 2016, 5:27 pm

Thanks Chirps.

Another favour... in bullet points...

What did Keela alert to.

What did Eddie alert to.

What did both alert to.

I know, that's cheeky of me to ask, but in simple terms I think it would advance the discission, if can clearly see what's what...

If you know what I mean. If you don't apologies and when get chance (probably tom now), then will do it myself.

Thanks.

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 5:32 pm

Andrew wrote:Thanks Chirps.

Another favour... in bullet points...

What did Keela alert to. HUMAN BLOOD

What did Eddie alert to. CADAVER SCENT and DRIED HUMAN BLOOD

What did both alert to. COULD BE HUMAN BLOOD AND CADAVER, COULD BE ONLY HUMAN BLOOD - further investigation needed

I know, that's cheeky of me to ask, but in simple terms I think it would advance the discission, if can clearly see what's what...

If you know what I mean. If you don't apologies and when get chance (probably tom now), then will do it myself.

Thanks.

seahorse Wed 18 May 2016, 5:36 pm

Andrew wrote:Thanks Chirps.

Another favour... in bullet points...

What did Keela alert to.

What did Eddie alert to.

What did both alert to.

I know, that's cheeky of me to ask, but in simple terms I think it would advance the discission, if can clearly see what's what...

If you know what I mean. If you don't apologies and when get chance (probably tom now), then will do it myself.

Thanks.

Keela alerts --> blood

Keela doesn't alert, Eddie alerts --> definitely cadaver scent

Keela alerts, Eddie alerts --> definitely blood OR blood AND cadaver scent

Châtelaine Wed 18 May 2016, 5:42 pm

IIRC the HUMAN cadaver scent on Kate's clothes was "explained" with [probably by "friends", "family" or a "spokesman"] the fact that as a GP she'd been attending several corpses for issuing death certificate just before their PT holiday.

However, it's in the files, released 2008, that she was on a two-year maternity leave ...

So: we have Eddie, over-excited even before they enter Apt.5A, who reacts strongly at several places and later on clothing and rented car, all relating the McCs only, several of them without Keela reacting to blood. That IS human cadaver. Nobody ever died in Apt.5A and there's only one person missing.

Don't forget either, that both dogs checked all of the apartments in Block 5 and only reacted in 5A [and in the rented villa].

So what the heck are we discussing here, if I may be so bold to ask, Satsuma?

chirpyinsect Wed 18 May 2016, 5:43 pm

Satsuma wrote:
chirpyinsect wrote:Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach.
Fantastic, just fantastic. Unfortunately, as you well know, I was referring to Eddie. The cadaver dog. You know the one? Not be confused with the blood dog. Nice attempt to confuse everyone though

You must have missed where I posted about how to get rid of cadaver odour. It seems to require some fairly uncommon items not usually found on the shelves of the Batista.
And I am not the one trying to confuse anyone. I agree it is vital to get it right. I have even agreed that there is a possibility that Eddie was alerting to the same blood as Keela behind the sofa, but what is not in dispute is that Eddie alerted where Keela did not in 3 places, so he had to have found cadaver scent.
If there was a way of knowing if Eddie alerts differently to the 2 things he is trained to find, as has already been discussed on page 2 of this thread, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I wonder if you are trying to say that there was a body but perhaps not originally in 5a. If so just say so. If not then tell us what you do think. I won't hold you to it. We are all just pondering.

Satsuma Wed 18 May 2016, 5:48 pm

chirpyinsect wrote:You must have missed where I posted about how to get rid of cadaver odour. It seems to require some fairly uncommon items not usually found on the shelves of the Batista.
I wonder if you are trying to say that there was a body but perhaps not originally in 5a. If so just say so. If not then tell us what you do think. I won't hold you to it. We are all just pondering.

1 I saw your tips on how to get rid of cadaver odour. But it would depend how strong it was in the first place, wouldn't it?
2 I have already said that there must have been a body - sometime, somewhere

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