Doubts on Mrs Fenn's statement?

Châtelaine wrote:It's disgusting IMO. Also because it's someone, who can't defend herself anymore ...
There's nothing suspicious about it, apart from the fact, that indeed apparently a small child was crying her heart out for over an hour !

I agree,but substitute,child for adult.

Mrs Fenn is pretty definite about the crying being that of a toddler and not a infant and as such surely we can assume she is correct......few adults sound like a child and fewer children sound like an adult!

above the room from which the child disappeared.

She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html

Few articles down but this link is comprehensive MrsF link I used before on page 9 of this thread

I don't disagree that she said it was a child crying,but IMO there is enough doubt in her story not to have been got at.I'm in two minds on it being either but Tuesday was the night IMO something happened.

To be honest I find it really disheartening to question a deceased woman's statement. I also do not
think we know the full extent of the case files. More to come (hopefully) for what it is worth my take
is that it was a recording of a child crying.

Wow! Bravo to HiDeHi and her meticulous research. I feel compelled to point out her amazingly revealing posts from "Vera", a witness there at the time, a searcher and observer of behaviours after the event:

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12369p20-what-happened-in-the-12-hrs-from-9pm-tuesday-9am-wednesday

I hope HiDeHo will forgive me reproducing Vera's incredibly important posts here in the interests of research. Mods, of you disagree, please remove:

Sorry about the cobbled-togetherness of Vera's posts.

The only way I could bring them over was to take numerous screenshots of HiDeHo's work and patch together.

If HiDeHo doesn't mind, I think it worth it - I for one have never seen Vera's evidence before.

More about Mrs Fenn from 3 years ago.....just for perusal.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared

Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared




SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today.

By JAMES MURRAY
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, May 19, 2013





1K

Madeleine s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance Madeleine’s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance

It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.

The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million  investigation.

It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.

She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.

At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.

A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.

“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”

Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.

Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.

He said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”

Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.

Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.

Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”

Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.

We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.

They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.

They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm.

madeleine mccann, maddie, scotland yard, new, suspects, mystery, couple, missingOcean Club view, showing distance between tapas bar and McCanns’ apartment

The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g bastards have taken her’
The woman’s statement
On their way home they walked directly past the entrance to the Ocean Club pool, where the “Tapas 7” (the name given to the friends eating with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared) were enjoying the meal with Kate and Gerry.

They walked past apartment 5a but noticed nothing untoward. The woman said in her statement: “I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.

“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.

“Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police.”

The couple took part in the search for Madeleine and then returned to their apartment.

The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g bastards have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”

At the couple’s home here, two Yard officers questioned them separately for three hours and got them to sign lengthy statements. They further interviewed them this year to double check their information.

The couple are key because at precisely 9.15pm on May 3, Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, said she left the tapas bar and walked past Gerry, who was talking to holidaymaker Jez Wilkins outside apartment 5a.

Neither Gerry nor Kate said they saw Jane. She reported that she had seen a man carrying a child, believed to be Madeleine, walking across the top of the road.

At the time she had not realised the significance. Officers asked the couple if they saw Jane, Gerry or Jez but they insist they did not.

The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.

The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered.

“We will continue to answer the Yard’s questions. We have given our fingerprints and DNA. We were happy to assist. They should be left to get on with their inquiries.”

I think we should remember that mr Amaral was asked the question at some point , were all the case files released to be read by all, the reply was no some were held back,that is an important fact to remember..So when and IF a time comes ,there is more that would be used. joyce1938

For all the energy expended in trying to discredit Mrs. Fenn, people should remember that Kate and Gerry have absolutely confirmed that she IS credible. She says she heard a child crying. Kate and Gerry have turned somersaults explaining that yes, she DID hear a child crying! It was Madeleine. Or it was Amelie. Perhaps it was Sean. Or Amelie and Sean. Or Madeleine and Sean. The only thing Kate and Gerry have disputed is which night it was. So they've admitted neglect and they've admitted they didn't come when their child or children cried. It doesn't matter that nobody else heard the crying. It doesn't matter that Mrs Fenn called a friend instead of interfering. Kate and Gerry have told us over and over that one or more of their children was crying and, by inference, that was what Mrs. Fenn must have heard. If Mrs. Fenn is discredited, so are Kate and Gerry. If there was no crying child, why did Kate and Gerry go to such lengths to make up a story to confirm what she heard?

Very good point C12. Like Costello, I think there is the possibility that it was a recording as I think Madeleine was already gone by then. The parents have confirmed that there was crying but tried to minimise it so they give truth to what Mrs Fenn said.
As an elderly lady she probably didn't like to interfere. Think about it. Would you if you didn't know the circumstances? She didn't know they weren't in did she? I would imagine she was cross and I would likely have tried to make some comment next day along the lines of "is your child ok today? I heard her cry last night." But maybe she didn't see them.
If it was a recording, that certainly smacks of pre-planning to me.

Her corner flat at the Ocean Club -

- her socking great old Mercedes -

and her tiny old gold watch...

Mrs Pamela Fenn looked every bit the retired English lady spy to me.

canada12 wrote:For all the energy expended in trying to discredit Mrs. Fenn, people should remember that Kate and Gerry have absolutely confirmed that she IS credible. She says she heard a child crying. Kate and Gerry have turned somersaults explaining that yes, she DID hear a child crying! It was Madeleine. Or it was Amelie. Perhaps it was Sean. Or Amelie and Sean. Or Madeleine and Sean. The only thing Kate and Gerry have disputed is which night it was. So they've admitted neglect and they've admitted they didn't come when their child or children cried. It doesn't matter that nobody else heard the crying. It doesn't matter that Mrs Fenn called a friend instead of interfering. Kate and Gerry have told us over and over that one or more of their children was crying and, by inference, that was what Mrs. Fenn must have heard. If Mrs. Fenn is discredited, so are Kate and Gerry. If there was no crying child, why did Kate and Gerry go to such lengths to make up a story to confirm what she heard?

These are my thoughts too Canada 12, and didn't Kate get a bit angry at having to repeat ' the crying
incident' on one occasion. Mrs Fenn definitely heard crying in my opinion.

costello wrote:

canada12 wrote:For all the energy expended in trying to discredit Mrs. Fenn, people should remember that Kate and Gerry have absolutely confirmed that she IS credible. She says she heard a child crying. Kate and Gerry have turned somersaults explaining that yes, she DID hear a child crying! It was Madeleine. Or it was Amelie. Perhaps it was Sean. Or Amelie and Sean. Or Madeleine and Sean. The only thing Kate and Gerry have disputed is which night it was. So they've admitted neglect and they've admitted they didn't come when their child or children cried. It doesn't matter that nobody else heard the crying. It doesn't matter that Mrs Fenn called a friend instead of interfering. Kate and Gerry have told us over and over that one or more of their children was crying and, by inference, that was what Mrs. Fenn must have heard. If Mrs. Fenn is discredited, so are Kate and Gerry. If there was no crying child, why did Kate and Gerry go to such lengths to make up a story to confirm what she heard?

These are my thoughts too Canada 12, and didn't Kate get a bit angry at having to repeat ' the crying
incident' on one occasion. Mrs Fenn definitely heard crying in my opinion.

I definitely think so and we had the couple who made a statement to the British police who heard it too.


Madeleine McCann: the couple who heard a child crying at night and went to help


IN “WHO SOOTHED WEEPING MADDIE, the Daily Express leads with a Madeleine McCann “exclusive”. It adds: “Police seek couple who entered McCann apartment when Madeleine was crying.”
This becomes:

Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared

The night before? A couple of strangers walked into the McCanns’ apartment where a child was crying the night before that child vanished? How does the Express know it was Madeleine who was crying? Three children were in the McCanns’ apartment.

SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today.

This looks like new news. James Murray adds:

It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.

Believed? By whom? Who did they tell?

The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.

Had she only have rang the police things may well have been different for Madeleine.
An unnamed source tells the Express that a couple also heard the crying and went to help.
Pamela Fenn has since died. In 2007, The Daily Mail reported:

Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was “absolute rubbish” she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: “I didn’t even know that family was in there.”

So. What Murray says is “already known” is “rubbish”.
Murray then does have some news. He says a couple, presumably the aforesaid “key witnesses” who had been staying in the same block as the McCanns, gave police a statement back in February. British police had previously spoken with them. Murray reproduces extracts from that statement. He also says the couple were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives. The statement tells us:

“I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.
“Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police…
 “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g bastards have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”

The couple had not seen anything suspicious:

“We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered. We will continue to answer the Yard’s questions. We have given our fingerprints and DNA. We were happy to assist. They should be left to get on with their inquiries.”

Such are the facts…

http://www.anorak.co.uk/357218/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-the-couple-who-heard-a-child-crying-at-night-and-went-to-help.html/

Was it not the Moyes who gave the statement about seeing nothing from the balcony?  I don't know if they are also the mystery soothers.
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Radio Stoke speak to Susan Moyes
Posted by Bren Ryan on October 24, 2011 in Media Interviews
radio stokeBack in 2007 Radio Stoke spoke to Susan Moyes who owned an apartment 2 floors above the McCanns holiday rental apartment.

In part of her interview she spoke of the night Madeleine went missing she said:

SUSAN MOYES Sure. We went out for a meal about seven o’clock down in the town. We walked back about nine o’clock, round past, erm, the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment. Went out on the balcony about quarter past nine. Everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely. We then went to bed. We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say a little girl had been abducted. Those were the words she used. So we got dressed and joined in the search. We were out till about four in the morning with, oooh, about I dont know, thirty people, thirty other people maybe. The Mark Warner team were out with other guests at the Ocean Club.

The full interview can be listened to here, with the transcript below:

Audio Player
00:0000:00

Transcript

REPORTER This is a story you’ve followed incredibly closely because you were involved on the night. You helped the police and the family in looking for Madeleine didn’t you?

SUSAN MOYES Yes we did and yes, very, very concerned. Concerned for the family and followed it every day, every day.

REPORTER Can you take us back to that night and what you were doing and when you first heard there was a problem?

SUSAN MOYES Sure. We went out for a meal about seven o’clock down in the town. We walked back about nine o’clock, round past, erm, the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment. Went out on the balcony about quarter past nine. Everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely. We then went to bed. We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say a little girl had been abducted. Those were the words she used. So we got dressed and joined in the search. We were out till about four in the morning with, oooh, about I dont know, thirty people, thirty other people maybe. The Mark Warner team were out with other guests at the Ocean Club.

REPORTER Now, to put it into perspective. We’ve all seen pictures of of the apartment were the McCanns were staying. How close is yours to theirs?

SUSAN MOYES Directly above. We are but one above. Mrs Fenn who lives there was in the apartment below us and then below that was the McCanns. So directly above.

REPORTER And you were out there for a considerable period of time.

SUSAN MOYES Yeah, we went out there on the Wednesday, the day before Madeleine went missing and we were out for the month of May.

REPORTER Tell me about the effect all of this has had on the local community there.

SUSAN MOYES It was unbelievable. Really apart from the disruption from the mass media, the helicopter constantly circling round and sheer disbelief really. Everybody was completely, well, amazed by it, gobsmacked really.

REPORTER What, I mean what were the local community saying to you? Because obviously being out there such a time you must have spoken to a lot of people about it. It must have been, if you like, the talk of the town.

SUSAN MOYES Mmm. There was a lot of criticism of the police which we felt was unfounded, err, at that time. Really a lot of unsure about exactly what happened. How did somebody get in? Was it the front? Was it the back? Was it left open? Was it forced? A lot of different stories.

REPORTER Speculation if you like.

SUSAN MOYES Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah!

REPORTER We’ve got a copy of the newspaper here. In fact its one of today’s newspapers, the Express and its still front page news, of course, back in the news.

SUSAN MOYES Big style. Yeah! Yeah!

REPORTER How do you feel when you see the pictures here in the newspapers? I mean have you collected newspapers over the period?

SUSAN MOYES Oh yeah! I get the paper every day anyway but obviously followed it very closely. And I just, disbelief. No way, no way do I feel they were any way involved in it. Not at all. No.

REPORTER How do you feel they’ve been treated?

SUSAN MOYES I think, erm, initially it was very supportive. Personally, I think, probably if they had left the Algarve maybe a month ago, erm, it would have been treated more favourably, I think.

REPORTER Its difficult to know how to handle that kind of situation from their point of view, though I suppose isn’t it?

SUSAN MOYES Beggars belief, it beggars belief, yeah. You just don’t want to be in that situation. But, yeah. I can’t understand the turn of people’s attitudes towards them. Some being really quite nasty, unfounded and wrong I think.

REPORTER Have the newspapers got it right in terms of where they were that evening, I mean the distance from the restaurant to the apartment and what have you?

SUSAN MOYES Well, yeah, as the crow flies they are probably about right with the fifty yards. But in actual fact you have to – its walled off, the pool and the bar is in a walled area about six foot of wall. So you have to actually go through a little entrance building out onto the road and then round to their apartment.

REPORTER And line of sight? Is there any?

SUSAN MOYES Difficult. They wouldn’t have had vision of the whole of their balcony. They would have only had the top of it from where they were sitting because of the wall and because of the flowers on top of the wall.

REPORTER How do you feel about the criticism of the McCann family for leaving their children?

SUSAN MOYES Harsh, very, very harsh. Hand on heart, we’ve all done something like that, I think. And erm, no, its just unfortunate. Just a sad, unfortunate accident.

REPORTER And how do you feel having been, if you like, being swept along with all this, having been a part of this story from the start, being there at the time when it all happened. I suspect as a family you must have talked about this over the dinner table for weeks and weeks and weeks.

SUSAN MOYES Yes, we have, we have. And I just can’t get my head around it at all. I can’t. I can’t understand it and I don’t, I don’t know if it’ll ever be resolved, really.

REPORTER You are off back to Portugal soon I gather. And how do you think Praia da Luz will be when you get back?

SUSAN MOYES Yeah, we go back in a couple of weeks and my husband has actually said for the first time he is going to feel very differently about it. No, I’m fine about it. I’m fine about it. But yeah, its a shame, its kind of tainted what is a lovely, lovely spot.


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22 comments on “Radio Stoke speak to Susan Moyes”

Anonymous
October 24, 2011 at 10:53 am
Hi, Bren.

SUSAN MOYES Yeah, we went out there on the Wednesday, the day before Madeleine went missing and we were out for the month of May.

They were 2 floors above, but I don’t seem to be able to find a police interview.

Mrs Fenn, in between them, wasn’t interviewed until 20/8.


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 5:12 pm
Carana, I have been looking and there is no mention of her at all in the files. Now why didn’t they get a statement from her, she states that a friend of the McCanns woke them up to tell them Madeleine had been abducted and she states that is all “she” said. So it could have only been Fiona, Rachel, Jane or Diane that knocked on their door.


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 5:14 pm
And this is from the Guardian 0n the 6th May 2007

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/06/madeleinemccann
Police, dogs and dozens of holidaymakers joined the search on the first night. Among them were Paul and Susan Moyes, who have been visiting the resort for six years and own property there. ‘It would normally be very safe,’ said Paul.

Bren
October 24, 2011 at 5:18 pm
And this is from the BBC on the 5th May 2007

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6628891.stm

Paul and Susan Moyes, 58, from Middlewich, Cheshire, stayed out until the early hours of Friday morning.

“I felt quite shattered, to be quite frank,” Mr Moyes said. “The people were themselves extremely sad and it was quite sad for everybody.

“We were quite emotionally shattered, seeing the family that distressed.”


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 5:42 pm
And this article is updated much later (October 2007) than the comments and they started on the 4th May 2007

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395014-maddy-was-abducted-and-we-have-a-suspect-in-mind.do

Paul Moyes, 47, from Cheshire, and his wife Susan own a holiday apartment in the same black as the McCanns. He said: “There was a knock on the door at about 11.30 from a hotel guest telling us a girl was missing and asking us to help in the search.

“There were uniformed police, plain clothes and even off-duty local officers. The search went on all night, people were using torches.

“We searched the beach and the hotel grounds with scores of people. Quite a few of us own holiday homes here so it’s a close-knit community and something like this is terribly shocking.” Michael Hannar, from Pontefract, Yorkshire, owns a ground floor apartment close to the McCanns.

He said: “I don’t believe a three-year-old child would have been strong enough to open the window or shutter.

“Mine are difficult to open, especially if the window is fully closed. The shutter is also difficult to open.”


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 5:54 pm
Now I thought they police would have got statements from all of those searching that night, including the Moyes. Mrs Moyes claims a female friend of the McCanns woke them.

Mr Moyes stated how distressed the family were, surely the Police would have wanted to ascertain what was said to them, who said what and when it was said, don’t you think?

Also did they see anything suspicious whilst they were on the balcony?

These people were involved in the search so they are witnesses.

Also I found this,

http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2007/05/06/knock-broke-quiet-night-93463-19053684/

A BRITISH couple told yesterday how frantic staff knocked on tourists’ doors to beg them to join the search for Maddie.

Paul and Susan Moyes, both 58, were woken in their apartment at 11.30pm.

Mr Moyes said: “I went out in my dressing gown and there was a distressed gentleman saying a child had been abducted and could we help. Everybody got involved.”

The couple, whose holiday apartment is above the one where Maddie was snatched, remained on the search until 4am.

They said many off-duty police in plain clothes joined the hunt. The couple, from Middlewich, Cheshire, were caught up in the drama after returning from an evening out.

Before going to bed they went on to their balcony and looked over at the tapas bar where, unknown to them, Maddie’s parents were dining.

Mrs Moyes recalled: “I remarked to Paul that there were so many people in there eating and drinking – and thought, ‘What a fabulous day’.”

Her husband said they felt “emotionally shattered” when they later witnessed the distress of Maddie’s family.

The couple said they thought Praia da Luz was idyllic and safe. Mrs Moyes added: “It is paradise.”

Now there is a change in story here, in one interview she said it was a female friend of the couple then in this article she states how Staff knocked on the doors. Surely the police would want to clear up who actually knocked on her door, was it a member of staff or a friend of the McCanns?


Anonymous
October 24, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Bridget O’Donnell says it was “one of the doctors” (male) who had frantically banged on their door at 1 am.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

And Paul Moyes said: “I went out in my dressing gown and there was a distressed gentleman saying a child had been abducted and could we help. Everybody got involved.”

Could well be the same one and the People just assumed it was staff.


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 8:29 pm
The thing is Carana, Susan Moyes definitely states that it was a woman that banged on the door and told them a child had been abducted and it was a friend of the McCanns.

She says:
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say a little girl had been abducted. Those were the words she used.
This is why I can’t believe there is no statement… all those press reports lead you to believe it was a man but she definitely says she and this interview was done on the 14th August 2007, just after the dogs and before arguido day.

So why wasn’t this clarified by interview.


Anonymous
October 24, 2011 at 9:12 pm
Yes, she does say “she”. And her husband mentions a man. Possibly a man and a woman and each remembers the other person? They might have given a statement to the UK police, which could explain why there doesn’t appear to be anything in the files.


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 9:25 pm
From what I can remember, Diane went back to the apartment, Fiona stayed with Kate and Jane and Rachael hung around the courtyard and when the Police arrived Jane went to tell them what she saw.

This is why I think Susan and her husband should have been interviewed, so they could identify which friend told them. If none of the Tapas women did knock on a door that was on the second floor, who did? And why did they say they were friends of the McCanns?

This is why it is crucial that Police gather as much info as they can as it is fresh in people’s minds.

With reference to they might have given a statement to the UK Police surely there would be a record of it in the files or a mention of it. I have searched MOYES and nothing comes up, not even in an email saying they are enclosing statements.

You know, when there is confusion and people out searching and pandemonium all around, that is the easiest way for a perpetrator to mingle in with the crowd and conceal anything they may have forgotten to hide. Or even deter someone from searching somewhere by saying they had already searched that area or knocked on that door and nothing was found.

The McCanns and their friends didn’t know the area but a local would have known the ins and outs and it should have been ascertained who was knocking on what doors.

Why didn’t Amaral for a start pick up on interviews being conducted on Radio stations back in the UK and pick up on things? Was he so concerned by that stage to frame the parents that he ignored everything else?


Bren
October 24, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Here is a picture of the apartments and who stayed where




Bren
October 24, 2011 at 11:39 pm
The more I think about this, the McCanns had their daughter taken, and I can’t see any organised search papers, maps of areas covered by holidaymakers etc. Who went where, what they saw, what doors they knocked etc.

All these people could have had potential information that could have found Madeleine, and yet there is no real statements.

God no wonder Kate and Gerry were feeling desperate and thinking not a lot was happening. It is ok everyone looking for a missing child, but surely they had designated areas, knew where they look and whose doors they knocked on.

Just another part of the investigation that seems haphazard like the basic knowledge of who has keys to the apartments and who doesn’t, where they are kept, have any been lost and had to be replaced etc? Along with the information about these burglaries and whether there was forced entry or not.


Anonymous
October 25, 2011 at 11:00 am
Well, it would have been a huge logistics nightmare for a small police force before further assistance arrived. And there were the forensics police, the GNR and the PJ all running around, plus the residents, tourists, temporary or permanent staff… The mass arrival of the media, few people probably understood each other’s language, the infrastructure was almost certainly not equipped to deal with it …

I have no problem imagining what chaos it must have been in the early days.

That said, I do think it might have been more useful to check with those involved in the search, and the whole key issue, earlier rather than later (or never).


Bren
October 25, 2011 at 11:37 am
Oh I agree Carana, initially everyone I suppose just went out and searched, I suppose thinking this child had wandered off. But once the McCanns explained the reasons why she couldn’t have wandered off.
Patio door was not open even though unlocked, gate at top of stairs still shut etc, the curtains were not open etc then it turned from wandering off to abduction.

That is when the Police really should have set up a command post dealing with searches and people searching. At least noting down areas searched, who searched where and names and addresses and contact numbers of those searched. If they could get statements initially they would have at least had who was searching.

It is those pieces of information that could lead to a breakthrough. One of those people searching might have seen something that did not seem relevant to them but added to another piece of information was the breakthrough they needed. They could have seen a car or another vehicle. They could have been knocking on a door where the lights were on and no-one was answering.

Yes the language barrier was an issue, but surely they had translators on hand for those that didn’t speak any Portuguese or even broken English.


Anonymous
October 25, 2011 at 11:08 am
Picking up on a point, Bren, I don’t recall anything in the files to explain why people had left rotting food in the fridge of one of the apartments that one of the early sniffer dogs found interesting. It could be totally innocent (simply holiday-makers forgetting to empty the fridge before leaving, or there could have another reason for someone being in a rush to leave).


Bren
October 25, 2011 at 11:56 am
Good point Carana, now if the flat was being let out surely the cleaners would have cleared the fridge and given it a wipe out. And rotting meat in a fridge would you would have smelt as soon as you opened the door.

Yes it was apartment 5J with regards to searches done on the 10th May 2007 and it appears the fridge door was open

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

All the apartments were searched by the dogs and when they arrived at apartment 5 J they began to sniff with intensity at the entrance door. During this behaviour it was noted by the PJ officers that there must be some unusual odour, but which with all certainty did not have anything to do with the odour being searched for, but there must have been something strange inside.

After entering the apartment, it was observed that the dour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables.

And this is in relation to three days earlier 7th May 2007

On 7th May the same searches were continued, being extended to to the entire northern part of Almadena to the site of Espojeiro and the verges of the EN125 until the Boi valley.

At about 19.. the undersigned officer, accompanied by the Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl’s clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort apartments even though its door was closed.

With regard to this task, Officer Silva referred to the fact that the time that had passed would be a crucial condition for the dogs’ work in obtaining results and that the entirety of the human odours existing in the apartments and access paths could make the dogs’ searches very difficult. However, in spite of not being a normal situation for tracking, it could be attempted, whilst the operation should be carried out as quickly as possible and not directed towards one but to all the apartments in the resort, it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl’s clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.

At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl’s clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done.

And apartment 5J is mentioned herehttp://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
Yesterday (08/05/07) around 23H45, this search action was repeated but was centred on the dogs inside blocks 5 and 4 of the resort. He adds that in this type of operation, given the time that had lapsed, and with the heat that could already be felt, the results obtained may be highly relative given that the dog will confirm all the scents it comes across. It is certain the dog will react to more active scents, namely because the apartment is occupied. Also, any noise perceived by the dog in the apartment may make the dog loose interest.
– Initiating the diligence, the first sniffer dog, after having smelled the towel used in the previous operation, began searching, it being certain that next to the doors of some apartment he demonstrated major interest whilst he did not even approach others. In none of these actions did the dog give him a signal that he had caught the scent of the missing child. It is certain however, that near apartment 5J, 5H and 4G, that the dog showed major interest in smelling the doors and the immediate areas. He states that next to 5H, there were two bags of rubbish which may condition the dog. Just outside apartment 4G was a tray with plates, cutlery and cloth napkins, apparently used. It is certain that this apartment is the one where the missing child’s parents were lodged (at the time). In relation to the dog’s interest at doorway 5J, the same may have been conditioned by the presence of people inside the apartment.
– After completing the search in the interior of block 5, verandas and apartment access, and whilst in the exterior, the sniffer dog took the same route he had taken on 04/05/07, being the road between that apartment and the leisure area-pool sand restaurant, and headed toward the same parking area. There he lost the scent of the search. This situation may be explained by the fact that the biggest concentration of odours in that location have been preserved and protected from the winds due to the adjoining walls. When this dog got to the main road, he turned right where a large dispersion of odours existed. Here the dog lost the scent.
– The second dog was submitted to the same operation. He too showed interest in the door of apartment 5J. Here he got up on his hind paws to the parapet of the veranda and raised his head in such a way as to catch the odour. As mentioned previously, this interest may be due to various factors but it is certain that at this location the dog scented an intense odour. In the exterior, the sniffer-dog immediately took the first road, heading toward the parking area next to block 6, and there lost the scent.
If I am reading this right the dogs alerted to apartment 5J on the 7th and the 8th May 2007 and it wasn’t until the 10th May 2007 that they discovered the rotting meat from the fridge.


samantha
October 25, 2011 at 12:13 pm
I don’t think that the cleaner was responsible for 5J.

Owner occupancy maybe.


Bren
October 25, 2011 at 12:23 pm
I don’t think they were, and that is what I am thinking Owner/Occupier, which in that case, still begs the question, they were looking for a missing child. A sniffer dog picked up a scent on the 7th May 2007 and yet they waited until the 10th May 2007 to find out it was rotting meat coming from a fridge.

And from the files

It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time.

Who stated the apartment had been unoccupied for some time? Could someone have had access to it illegally and without owners permission?

Where is all the background information relating to apartment 5J. You can smell rotting meat a mile off, and they state the fridge door was open.

After entering the apartment, it was observed that the dour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables.






Bren
October 25, 2011 at 12:15 pm
And from another statement:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
– Yesterday (08.05.2007) around 23H45, this search action was repeated but this time the dogs were sent into blocks 5 and 4 of the ‘Ocean Club†resort. During this operation, and given the time that had passed combined with the heat, the results that were achieved are very relative given that the dog will confirm all the odours it scents, certainly alerting to those that are most active, namely due to the fact that the apartment was occupied. It is also noted that the dogâ€s perception in the interior may be affected by noise.
– The initial diligence carried out with first sniffer dog, after having sniffed the towel used in the previous operation, began searching and showing interest in some doors leading to other apartments. He did not show any interest or even approach other apartments. In none of these actions did the dog give the signal to his trainer, Soldado Fernandes. It is certain however, that the dog signalled next to apartments 5J, 5H, and 4G. He showed great interest in sniffing these doors and the immediate areas. Next to door 5H there were two bags of rubbish and the odour may have distracted the dog. Outside 4G was a tray of plates, cutlery and cloth napkins that had apparently been used. This apartment is where the parents of the missing child were staying (at the time). Concerning apartment 5J, the same may have been conditioned by the presence of people in the interior or he could have sniffed an odour that needed to be confirmed.
– He states that after the search inside block 5, and whilst in the exterior, the sniffer dog took the same route on 04.05.07, being the existent road of that apartment and the leisure area (pools and restaurant) and then went to the same parking area. At that point, the scent was lost. This situation may be related to the fact that the biggest concentration of odours are in that area and due to the fact that odours are better preserved near walls and away from major winds. It is certain that upon reaching the main road and turning right is where the biggest concentration of odours exist. This is where the dog lost interest.
– The second dog was taken through the same operation and also showed interest at the door of apartment 5J. This same dog jumped on his hind paws to the parapet of the veranda and raised his head as though in search of an odour. As related above, this interest could have been the result of various factors but it is certain that in this area the scent was intense. In the exterior, the sniffer dog immediately headed to the parking area next to block 6 and there apparently lost the scent.

Anonymous
October 25, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Hi Samantha. Yes, could be… or rentals/friends staying without any local cleaning arrangements. However, there does not seem to be a clarification of the situation in the files.


Anonymous
October 25, 2011 at 12:54 pm
“I don’t think they were, and that is what I am thinking Owner/Occupier, which in that case, still begs the question, they were looking for a missing child. A sniffer dog picked up a scent on the 7th May 2007 and yet they waited until the 10th May 2007 to find out it was rotting meat coming from a fridge.”
Thing is, getting a search warrant in the absence of a tenant/owner probably takes quite some time. Which brings me back to thinking that someone local had a spare set of keys to open it for them (or the people present had just gone away for a couple of days and had come back).


samantha
October 25, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Other rental agencies were used for letting out apartments in the OC.

Malinkas mother worked for Ocean Blue who cleaned out apartments in the OC,
and one of them was an apartment in block 5 on the top floor.

I can’t see apt. 5J on the list in vol 3, which might suggest that whoever occupied that apartment left before the 3rd.

Comments are closed.

Madeleine McCann

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costello wrote:

canada12 wrote:For all the energy expended in trying to discredit Mrs. Fenn, people should remember that Kate and Gerry have absolutely confirmed that she IS credible. She says she heard a child crying. Kate and Gerry have turned somersaults explaining that yes, she DID hear a child crying! It was Madeleine. Or it was Amelie. Perhaps it was Sean. Or Amelie and Sean. Or Madeleine and Sean. The only thing Kate and Gerry have disputed is which night it was. So they've admitted neglect and they've admitted they didn't come when their child or children cried. It doesn't matter that nobody else heard the crying. It doesn't matter that Mrs Fenn called a friend instead of interfering. Kate and Gerry have told us over and over that one or more of their children was crying and, by inference, that was what Mrs. Fenn must have heard. If Mrs. Fenn is discredited, so are Kate and Gerry. If there was no crying child, why did Kate and Gerry go to such lengths to make up a story to confirm what she heard?

These are my thoughts too Canada 12, and didn't Kate get a bit angry at having to repeat ' the crying
incident' on one occasion. Mrs Fenn definitely heard crying in my opinion.

I agree, I think Mrs Fenn heard crying but I can understand why she was reluctant to do anything.

She was an elderly lady living alone. It was late at night and she didn't know the people staying in that apartment.

Maybe she hadn't seen or heard anything of them prior to that night so she would be interfering in a situation that she knew nothing about. However, it's possible that she had already heard arguments, screaming, shouting, swearing, crying and slamming doors and really didn't want to get involved.

To me, the fact that she phoned a friend indicates that the crying really worried her.

CF post above reiterates mine before and stuff I posted way back. Is Moyes the name of this couple do we have any information or links to files(anyone?) Off for a look.

I think they may be the same, here is transcript from McCannfiles.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id52.html

"We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used", 14 August 2007

Search for Maddie BBC - Stoke and Staffordshire   14 August 2007 - Susan Moyes owns an apartment two floors above the one the McCanns stayed in.   Transcript   By Nigel Moore   Question: This is a story you've followed incredibly closely because you were involved on the night; you helped the police and the family in looking for Madeleine, didn't you?   Susan Moyes: Yes, we did and, yes, very, very concerned... concerned for the family and followed it, every day... every day.   Q: Can you take us back to that night and... and what you were doing and when you first heard there was a problem?   SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.   We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.   Q: Now, to... to put it into perspective, we've all seen the pictures of the apartment where the McCanns were staying. How close is yours to theirs?   SM: Directly above, errm... we are but one above. Mrs Fenn, that lives there, was in the apartment below us and then below that was the McCanns, so directly above. The Moyes were sat on their balcony at 9:15 PM but report nothing suspicious Q: And, errr... you were out there for a considerable... a considerable period of time?   SM: Yeah, we went out on the Wednesday; the day before sh..., errr... Madeleine went missing and we were out for the month of May.   Q: Tell me about the affect all of this has had on the... the local community there.   SM: It was, errr... unbelievable really. Apart from the disruption from the mass media, the helicopter - constantly circling round - and sheer disbelief really, everybody was completely, errm... well, amazed by it. Gobsmacked, really.   Q: What... I mean, what were the local community saying to you because obviously being out there such a time, you must have spoken to a lot of people about it? It must have been, if you like, the talk of the town.   SM: Mmm... There was a lot of criticism of the police, which... which we felt was unfounded, errm... at that time. And... really, a lot of... unsure about exactly what happened. How did somebody get in? Was it the front? Was it the back? Was it left open? Was it forced? A lot of different stories...   Q: Speculation, if you like...   SM: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.   Q: And... we've got a copy of the newspaper here - in fact it's one of today's newspapers - The Express and... and it's still front page news, of course. Back in the news, there...   SM: Big... big style, yeah, yeah.   Q: How do you feel when you see the pictures here in the newspapers? I mean, have you... have you collected newspapers over the period?   SM: Oh yeah, I get the paper every day anyway but obviously followed it very closely and I just… disbelief, no way... no way do I feel they were any way involved in it. Not at all, no.   Q: How do you feel they… they've been treated?   SM: I think, errm... initially it was very supportive. Personally, I think probably if they'd left the Algarve maybe a month ago, errm... it... it would have been treated more favourably, I think.   Q: It's difficult to know how... how to handle that kind of situation, from their point of view though, I suppose, isn't it?   SM: Beggar's belief... it beggar's belief, yeah, you just don't want to be in that situation, errm... but, yeah, I can't understand this, errr... the turn of... of people's attitudes towards them, some being really quite nasty, unfounded and... and wrong, I think.   Q: Have the newspapers got it right in terms of... of where they were that evening, I mean, the distance from the... the restaurant to the apartment and what have you?   SM: Well, yeah, as the crow flies, errm... they're probably about right with the 50 yards but, in actual fact, you do have to... it's walled off, in a walled area - about six foot of wall - so you have to actually have to go through a little, errm... entrance building, out onto the road and then round to their apartment.   Q: And line of sight, is there any?   SM: Difficult... they wouldn't have had vision of the whole of their, errm... errr... balcony, they would only have had the top of it from... from where they were sitting, because of the wall and because of the flowers on top of the wall.   Q: How do you feel about the... the criticism of the McCann family for leaving the children?   SM: Harsh... very, very harsh. Hand on heart, we've all done something like that, I think, and errm... no, it's... it's just unfortunate. Just a sad, unfortunate accident.   Q: And how do you feel having been, if you like, errm... being swept along with all of this, having been part of this story from the start, being there, at that time when it all happened, I mean, I suspect as a family you must have talked about this over the dinner table for... for weeks and weeks and weeks?   SM: Yes... yes, we have, we have, errm... and I just can't get my head round it at all. I can't... I can't understand it and I don't... I don't know if it'll ever be resolved, really.   Q: You're off back to... to Portugal soon, I gather, and errm... how do you think Praia da Luz will be when you get back?   SM: Yeah, we go back in a couple of weeks, errm... and my husband has actually said for the first time he's going to feel very differently about it, errm... I... I... no, I'm fine about, I'm fine about it, errm... but, yeah, it’s a shame, it's kind of tainted what is a lovely... lovely spot.

This from a newspaper from Mccannfiles.........


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id52.html

Holidaymakers tell of late-night search for Madeleine, 05 May 2007

Holidaymakers tell of late-night search for Madeleine Breaking News   05/05/2007 - 15:05:45   A British couple on holiday in the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted told today how frantic staff knocked on the doors of holidaymakers to get them involved in a search for the missing girl.   Paul Moyes, 58, who is on holiday with his wife, Susan, said: "At 11.30pm there was a knock on the door. I went out in my dressing gown and there was a distressed gentleman there saying that a child had been abducted and could we help with the search. Everybody got involved."   The couple said the drama unfolded after what they described as "a fabulous day" in the Praia Da Luz resort.   It was as the couple were sleeping that three-year-old Madeleine was snatched from her parents' holiday apartment below.   Mrs Moyes, 58, from Middlewich, Cheshire, told how they had returned to their apartment at around 9.15pm after an evening out.   "We went into the apartment, I went out on the balcony, looking over at the tapas bar, and remarked to Paul that there were so many people in there eating and drinking – 'what a fabulous day'."   Among those dining in the tapas bar opposite their apartment were Madeleine's parents, Gerry and Kate, who were making regular trips back to their own rooms to check on their children.   Mr Moyes said: "I felt quite shattered, to be quite frank. The people were themselves extremely sad and it was quite sad for everybody.   "We were quite emotionally shattered, seeing the family that distressed."   He said that among those who joined the search were many off-duty police in plain clothes who had been called in to help.   Mrs Moyes said: "Walking around you would see individual men, they were police but you wouldn't know because they were in casual clothes."   The couple said they remained on the search until 4am on Friday morning.   Mr Moyes described the resort as idyllic and safe. His wife added: "It is paradise."

Now in only one of the above articles concerning the Moyes do we get "they've f#cking taken her" which implies anger and knowledge of "they" Imo. Is this in files or anywhere else. Also the story of the couple(Moyes I presume?) comforting crying child is not in radio interview or any other with Moyes talking is this another of McCann moments filled with cream of red herring mousse?

Bampots wrote:Now in only one of the above articles concerning the Moyes do we get "they've f#cking taken her" which implies anger and knowledge of "they" Imo. Is this in files or anywhere else. Also the story of the couple(Moyes I presume?) comforting crying child is not in radio interview or any other with Moyes talking is this another of McCann moments filled with cream of red herring mousse?

I can't make a connection between the Moyes and the "caring" couple. SM never mentions going in to the apartment and she is referring to the Thursday night in the interview not the supposed crying event which Mrs Fenn said was Tuesday and the Macs shifted to Wednesday. Who saw this couple? Who reported it and to whom? Why is it not in the files?

So has someone cojoined one true and one lie to get to the story ie nothing to prove anyone entered flat and comforted Madeleine. And can anyone corroborate "they've f@cking taken her"?

More on the Moyes and "They've f**king taken her" here:

https://maddiemccannmystery.forumotion.co.uk/t860-they-ve-taken-her-they-ve-taken-her

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3925-apartment-5k-moyes

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1596.20;wap2

Am I reading it right that the Moyes weren't the caring couple but they were the ones who reported the caring couple going into 5A to the police? Were the caring couple really caring or were they up to something else completely different?