Doubts on Mrs Fenn's statement?

You would expect a lot poster    What you expect and what others might can be totally different.  I for instance if on holiday with the rug rats would want to be able to do what I wanted when I wanted, that would be including a lie in with the kids if I wanted and not have to get up for a certain time for breakfast.  Much better with kids to get up in  your own time, and get ready at your leisure.  These restaurants have set hours so you have to be there for a certain time, I hate the idea of conforming to that.  So I would not expect it as you do.

I am simply suggesting that their deviation from the routine that their friends followed is suggestive that something occurred early on in the week.

When you factor in the weird photos and the dodgy creche registers plus Kate's peculiar book a picture starts to emerge.

Very young children tend to get up early and create mayhem. There's zero chance of a 'lie-in' that's for sure. And why did none of the other Tapas parents take Madeleine or one of the twins to breakfast or lunch one day?

I think that's weird.

But back to Mrs Fenn; her niece, and the Jensen sisters!  

I think all of them are real thorns in the TM side.  All of them, imo, heard and saw things that were important. Kate and Fiona are rude to Mrs Fenn. The Jensen sisters' sighting was ignored to the extent that they were so desperate that they travelled out to Luz months later to speak to Kate and Gerry personally but failed to do so as by then Kate and Gerry had been made arguidos.

Carol Tranmer arrived in the Algarve on the same day as the McCanns and stayed for a week. During this time she visited her Aunt at her apartment above the McCanns. She spent an afternoon sitting on her Aunt's balcony on Thursday and saw a man below opening and closing a gate that lead to a ground floor apartment in a suspicious fashion. She contacted police shortly after her return to the UK and gave a very detailed account.  Police were interested enough in her sighting to ask her to create an 'identi-kit' as they called it.

Snipped from Carol's police statement:

CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident.


-----

CT'Well, he opened the gate from inside and made so he did not make any noise, I only'it was what made me feel strange about it. He did this all very quietly, as if... you know, when a gate creeks, but he ensured that it did not make noise, it could have been (inaudible)

DC1485'With caution'

CT'Yes, simply ensuring that it did not bang, and I know some people who enter without banging the doorafter they enter, so this was very cautious, very careful, and for this reason, only this reason, I called you.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'It looked as though he was leaving, he closed it with both his hands, many times, closing it in silence and cautiously with both hands and he looked lastly this way downwards, first to this side.

DC1485'So what you are saying is that he looked first in your direction' He looked to you, but he was not positioned. This way

CT'Yes.

DC1485'Then he looked to the left.

CT'Oh I see.

DC1485'And after he cautiously and slowly pushed it and afterwards looked to the right, and continued walking.

CT'And he'the direction he took was to the street.

DC1485'He then went in this direction to the street, here, this street.

CT'Yes.

------

CT'An after having spoken to them, I received a call from someone in Reading asking me to help in trying to create what they called an 'identi-kit'.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'They asked me 'if it was possible' and I responded 'yes, of course' and they came from Reading. I reserved another room for them and it was in this way that everything happened, and'

Carol gives an approximate time frame for the sighting as between 3.30pm and 4.30pm on Thursday 3rd May. She is also sure that she would recognize the man if she saw him again.
----------

The Jensen sisters' sighting was of "two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz."

Snipped from news story below:

Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.

The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony.

The pair, tanned and in Bermuda shorts, were standing outside the patio doors of a ground floor apartment, which had been unoccupied all week, and were looking out over the resort's family swimming pool and restaurant area.
Mrs Wiltshire, 58, a mother of two, said: "It was odd because I hadn't seen them before. In May the resort wasn't busy.

The empty apartment where the two blond men were seen on the veranda by the Jensen sisters would be apartment 5C. This is a ground-floor apartment two doors along from 5A. There has been speculation that the McCanns stayed in 5C and that apartment 5A was used to stage an abduction. Apartment 5C is next door to Matt and Rachael's apartment which was 5B.

-------

These two sightings are obviously important but I had always thought they had been ignored by Kate.

But looking at Kate's book of the truth I can see that, intriguingly, it would appear that  she has morphed the two sightings into one sighting (rather like the Tannerman Smithman morph!). And, equally intriguingly imo, she has morphed the three witnesses into just one witness. She describes this person in her book as: "Witness Six".

I do love KM's modus operandi. It's always so revealing. She does a sort of 'pick and mix' of the facts with switches and distortions in order to twist the evidence to suit a particular agenda, imo.

So according to Kate 'Witness Six': "Was standing on the veranda of a first-floor apartment in the same block as 5A......some time between 4pm and 5pm, she noticed a man coming out though one of the little gates leading from the terraces of the ground-floor apartments to the access path. His behaviour struck the witness as suspicious; he appeared to be trying to close the gate quietly...."

Of course this would be consistent with Carol Tranmer's sighting. Except for one significant alteration. Carol made her sighting sitting on Mrs Fenn's third floor veranda. A crucial distinction of course. Because - if this sighting really was made by someone on a first floor balcony of the block - then it couldn't have been a sighting from anyone sitting on Mrs Fenn's third floor veranda that sunny Thursday afternoon!

A first floor veranda is, of course, the location of one of the sightings - the Jensen sisters who saw two blond men standing on the veranda of empty apartment 5C on Thursday afternoon - but Kate, significantly,  has omitted this sighting from her book entirely. I wonder why?

But back to what Kate writes about the 'Witness Six' sighting. "The witness thought this was the first gate along the pathway from the road. If her recollection is correct it was the gate to apartment 5B where our friends Matt and Rachael were staying. That afternoon, Rachael, Matt and their daughter were on the beach at Praia da Luz with the rest of our friends. They were away from the Ocean Club complex from before 3pm until 6pm.

The first gate along the alleyway that leads to the road does I think lead to apartment 5B as I think that, unlike the other TM apartments, apartment 5A is accessed by a gate that opens directly onto the street rather than onto the access path.

Interesting how Kate states that Rachael, Matt and their daughter were away from the OC complex at the time of that sighting. I presume this is a sensitive time that afternoon. I wonder what was really going on?

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz3z6jVlhf3
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

Was Mrs Fenn not directly above the McCann apartment with the Moyes above that? Therefore CT did not observe from a 3rd floor apartment. It is somewhat confusing as 5a is designated as a ground floor apartment which it is when entering by the front door but at the rear you have to climb a stair making it ( to me) first floor. Even so Mrs Fenn is either first floor ( from the front) or second floor from the rear, not 3rd floor.
Sorry to be pedantic.

Is this anything to do with American parlance? They call the ground floor the first, which makes the second floor the third - if you see what I mean!

Guinea Pig wrote:Is this anything to do with American parlance? They call the ground floor the first, which makes the second floor the third - if you see what I mean!

I agree they do call them differently in the states but CT is English. Do they also mean different things in Europe I wonder?

Realistically, if 'Witness Six' had really made her sighting from a first floor balcony in the same block, the sighting could only have been made from the balcony of empty (supposedly) apartment 5C.

Carol's description of the man - who has a distinctive appearance as he is very blond - is very detailed right down to his features, the shape of his head, the haircut and his T-shirt. I think that only someone on a veranda of a flat very close by would be able to have seen him so distinctly. Carol got a prolonged bird's eye view of the man as she was above him but at an angle which allowed her to see his features and to see whether he was clean-shaven, wearing glasses or not and whether he had any jewelry.

The other nearby apartments were occupied by Team McCann who - allegedly - were on the beach that afternoon (but not the McCanns). The McCanns were in apartment A. Oldfields were in apartment B. Apartment C was empty (allegedly) and apartment D was where Jane and Russell were staying.

I presume that Kate places 'Witness Six' on a first floor balcony because she wishes to draw attention away from Mrs Fenn's third floor balcony. It's a pretty desperate effort, imo.

But it is curious that the only first floor veranda in the block where 'Witness Six' might conceivably have made this sighting happens to be apartment 5C. Which just so happens to be where the Jensen sisters saw the two blond strangers standing on the
"just hours" (according to the Mail story" before Madeleine vanished. I wonder what time this was? I don't think their statements were made public?

Poster, you still seem to be maintaining that Mrs Fenn was on the 3rd floor. Please tell me how you arrive at that conclusion as she could only be on the first or second floor depending on whether you mean from the front or the back of the building.
url=https://servimg.com/view/18995885/236][/url]

It was the McCanns on the bottom, Mrs Fenn directly above them and the Moyes were in the top floor flat:

chirpyinsect wrote:Was Mrs Fenn not directly above the McCann apartment with the Moyes above that? Therefore CT did not observe from a 3rd floor apartment. It is somewhat confusing as 5a is designated as a ground floor apartment which it is when entering by the front door but at the rear you have to climb a stair making it ( to me) first floor. Even so Mrs Fenn is either first floor ( from the front) or second floor from the rear, not 3rd floor.
Sorry to be pedantic.

Yes - a very good point. If you are looking at the apartments from the rear then it looks like Mrs Fenn's balcony is on a third floor. If you look at the apartments from the front, then it would make her balcony on the second floor. I think this is what CT is getting at below.

But I agree, technically speaking CT "was on the veranda of a first-floor apartment in the same block as 5A". But there is some ambiguity here. Why not just state:" Witness Six was on the veranda of the apartment directly above us so was able to give a very good description of the man." Then why not make public CT's 'identikit'. I would say from reading her police statement that CT gives one of the most detailed descriptions that exist from any of the 'sightings' and, due to the distinctive looks of the man, she is sure she would recognize him again.

Mrs Fenn was directly above the McCanns but I am not sure about the Moyes?

From CT police statement:

She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain, but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485'Third floor.

CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.

chirpyinsect wrote:Poster, you still seem to be maintaining that Mrs Fenn was on the 3rd floor. Please tell me how you arrive at that conclusion as she could only be on the first or second floor depending on whether you mean from the front or the back of the building.
url=https://servimg.com/view/18995885/236][/url]

-----

Hopefully previous post answers question. But Kate is still undeniably coy about which balcony Witness Six was on. Why? It's an important sighting and the fact that it was made by somebody in an apartment directly above the McCanns.

Maybe it was to protect identities?

Okay - I now see that Kate, in her book, does in fact provide a sketch of the man seen, presumably by CT. It is sketch number 4 in her book. However in this sketch the man is distinctly dark with very dark brown/black hair, very dark eyebrows, certainly not "very fair, cropped hair."

I give up. Mrs Fenn was no higher than the second floor no matter what way you look at it. Check out the Moyes statement posted elsewhere on the forum where SM states they live above the McCann apartment, therefore above Mrs F. I don't have time to look it up again.

CT  in police statement:

He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though

If this man is supposed to be sketch number 4 in Kate's book then someone is taking the p***.

---------

From CT's statement:

CT: DC1485'Yes without a beard or did you notice anything else'

CT'No, nothing from what I remember, because he was very blonde.


From CT's statement:

DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'

CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair

CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.

DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'

CT'No.

DC1485'No.

CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.

Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'

CT'The hair is right. More or less.

DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.

CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.

DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...

CT'The top, his head is...

DC1485'The same.

CT'Yes.

DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'

CT'Well, he had a long face.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'Yes, this, this you know.

DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.

CT'No, certainly it is not.

DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.

CT'Is this what they sent'

DC1485'Yes.


CT'Is this what they sent'

DC1485'Yes.

CT'This I made'

DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'

CT'No, a young person, humm...

DCc1485'Male'

CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.

DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'

CT'No.

DC1485'No.

CT'From Reading.

DC1485'Yes, from Reading.

CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.

DC1485'Okay, sure.

CT'But this, this is not like the one he did.

DC1485'Well, there must be some confusion. I would like to finally ask you regarding your aunt, Pamela FENN.



* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in view of the previous replies.
MISSING FROM FILES
Carole Tranmer

Original interview and identikit not included in DVD:

In the interview of Carole Tranmer on 22nd April 2008, as recorded on DVD, reference is made more than once to a statement given by her to Leics police on 8 May 2007, and to an identikit that was created with the assistance of a police officer from Reading.

chirpyinsect wrote:I give up. Mrs Fenn was no higher than the second floor no matter what way you look at it. Check out the Moyes statement posted elsewhere on the forum where SM states they live above the McCann apartment, therefore above Mrs F. I don't have time to look it up again.

----

Well, according to Mrs Fenn's niece in her rogatory it was second or third floor so clearly there is scope for some ambiguity. But perhaps it is not that important in the general scheme of things.

But, given that you needed to go up a flight of steps to get to the veranda of apartment 5A, then it is quite understandable that there might be confusion about which floors the verandas of apartment 5A are on and the veranda of Mrs Fenn's apartment were on.

It probably doesn't matter that much really. What I suspect is more important is that CT's sighting (assuming this is Witness Six) has morphed in Kate's book to a man with very dark hair who does not look remotely Scandinavian!

Given that four people  that week give reasonably detailed accounts of sightings of suspiciously-acting blond men, including Mrs Fenn's niece, it is odd, imo (or perhaps not!) that none of the photo-fits to my knowledge feature a blond man. Not one.

Kate's book does, indeed, give a photo-fit of Mrs Fenn's niece's sighting but he has morphed, in true TM style, from a very blond man who looks Scandinavian to a very dark man who looks North African!  

Significantly, imo, Mrs Fenn's niece gives a very detailed account indeed of the 'very blond' man she saw stealthily opening and shutting the gate that leads to apartment 5B, occupied that week by Russell and his family I do believe. Right down to remembering if he was wearing jewellery, glasses or sunglasses or had tattos. Her description is consistent with seeing someone from above at an angle.

The Jensen sisters see two blond men acting suspiciously on the veranda of empty (supposedly) apartment 5C.  So desperate are they to get their sighting taken seriously that they travel out to Luz to try to speak to the McCanns. Their 'e-fit' has never been made public as far as I can tell. Why?

And TV documentary maker Jez Wilkins reports to Portuguese police on Friday 4th May 2007 that he saw a blond man acting suspiciously on Thursday evening inside the Tapas restaurant. (Jez later makes considerable changes to this statement.) This man is also distinctive in appearance as he is described as having hair like a 'blond rasta.' In police files it is recorded that this man is later identified by police as fellow-guest Mike Sperrey who is also, I do believe, a surfing buddy of GM's.

However I was curious about other men in or around OC that week who might be described as having 'blond rasta' type hair. And that description could also apply to tennis coach at OC that week Dan Stuk. Not making any accusations at all of course.

Perhaps this is deserving of a thread of its own (if there isn't one already) because Stuk is an absolutely crucial eye-witness as he was the McCann and Tapas tennis coach that week. He saw them pretty much every day for tennis so would have observed their behaviour and known who was and wasn't there. And even gave Kate and Gerry a private tennis lesson that fateful Thursday afternoon from 3.30pm to 3.45pm. The only time that week that Kate and Gerry had a private lesson together I think (!) Also Kate in her book records how they arrived early so knocked up for half an hour!

Wow! How many hours were the McCanns playing tennis on Thursday? Astonishing.  An hours tennis each during the morning. Then a half hour of knocking up in the afternoon followed by a forty-five minute private lesson. Then Gerry played tennis again for an hour in the evening at 6pm for the mens' social. That's over three hours of tennis for GM on Thursday.

From Stuk's rogatory:

Questioned, he relates that he knew the McCann family as part of his work, since he gave them tennis lessons, as a couple, parents of the missing Madeleine, as well as the other couples who accompanied them.

He reports that the group iniciated contact with the tennis instructors on the 29 April, the day immediately after their arrival at the Ocean Club.

His colleague Georgina has the calendar of classes given by her and by him to the McCann couple.

He relates that a first lesson of instruction was done in the morning of 29 April, it being that, on that day, they had no more lessons.

On the following days the parents of Madeleine, whom the deponent identified as Gerry and Kate McCann, scheduled 16 tennis classes, together and/or separately, at different times of the morning or afternoon, classes that were conducted by either him or by Georgina depending on their booking calendar.

Questioned about the class times of G&K McCann on last Thursday, 3 May, he related that the mother of MBM had a group class at 09-10h00 conducted by Georgina; the father had a group class at 10-11h00 conducted by him.

Later, at 15-15h45, the couple had a private class, together, conducted by him - and finally, GM participated in the men's social tennis event at 18-19h00.

Questioned about whether, yesterday, he had conducted tennis lessons for an individual called Jeremy Wilkins, who was commonly known as Jez, the deponent relates that that individual booked, and attended, some tennis lessons and that all of those had been given by him.

He relates that, as they had group lessons together GM and Jez had had some conversations, but he thinks that it is only because they shared some classes and that those [conversations] will not have given rise to a firm friendship, but rather to a simple acquaintanceship due to which they would have conversed when they met each other.


Questioned about the couple and their behaviour, both between the family and with the other group members, the deponent relates that he never noted any issue between them, and that the behaviour of everyone was like any other group of tourists that take their holidays in the resort every day.


There never appeared any problem between them and other people. It being asked of him, the deponent relates that the McCann couple and the remaining group members had often been together, not always all of them, but the majority of the people were sociable with each other.

He relates that they spent most of the day within the OC resort, in the pool, also they went to the beach but they did not use any of the OC activities there, and they centred their attention on the developed activities of the resort, it being that the couple preferred, unquestionably, tennis.


https://www.facebook.com/public/Dan-Stuk

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAN-STUK.htm

Just posting this as I have just come across it.  It states clearly that Mrs Fenn had been interviewed at the start of the investigation.  There is mention of it elsewhere in another section on this link.  This is to clarify for those certain people that seem to say she wasn't interviewed for over 3 months..........

Deposition: Child cried for her father, 22 August 2007

Deposition: Child cried for her father Correio da Manhã (no longer available online) Maddie yelled for her father Wednesday 22 August 2007 With thanks to Astro for translation The McCanns' neighbour in the Ocean Club apartment was heard on Monday by Policia Judiciaria and confirmed she heard Maddie crying for her father the day before she disappeared. Pamela Fenn, 70, had been questioned at the beginning of the investigation, but the day before yesterday she made a more precise deposition about the details of what she heard and the conversation she held with the girl's mother on the night that she vanished. In the deposition that was made to the PJ in Portimao, which has been functioning as the headquarters of the investigation, Pamela Fenn confirmed she had made herself available to contact police authorities, although Kate McCann dismissed that offer saying the alert had already been made. The checking of the time at which this conversation took place with the record of the alert to the GNR is one of the important elements for the reconstruction of what happened during those moments.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html


NOTE:  This is not in the files and may be one of the missing pages not on view.

Tot's screams 'a myth' Sunday Mirror

THE SEARCH FOR MADELEINE DAY 143

By Grant Hodgson
23/09/2007

A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.

Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives above the Praia da Luz apartment Madeleine vanished from, supposedly said she heard the four-year-old "scream for four hours" the night before. The reports fuelled police theories that mum Kate sedated Madeleine. But widow Mrs Fenn, interviewed by police two days after Madeleine disappeared, said: "I never heard her screaming or Kate and Gerry arguing.

"I didn't realise anything was wrong until I heard all sorts of commotion outside."


**************



And to show just how scared the poor lady was, I think she had spoken to journalists then heard about the judicial secrecy and got terrified, so sort of back tracked out of fear, poor woman....

SIC news item, 22 August 2007
	SIC news item

Presenter: The PJ has heard again, this week, the British octogenarian who lives above the apartment from where Maddie disappeared, but Pamela Fenn, botherered by the journalists' attention, denied having spoken with the police and said she didn't have any information about the case.

At the age 81 the quietness of this retired British woman seems to have been seriously shaken, after an outburst at the hairdresser, the news that she was a witness in Maddie's process quickly reached the journalists' ears. Pamela Fenn lives on the floor above apartment 5A from where the girl disappeared. According to what she might have told the police, on the day before Madeleine disappeared, that night, she heard the child crying and calling for her father for long minutes.

That, and the fact that she spends most time on the veranda with a view to the Tapas restaurant, made the police return to the Ocean Club on Monday morning. For about four hours the investigators were particularly interested to see if she had seen someone from the McCann group leave the restaurant to go check on the children, and on the content of the brief conversation that Pamela had with Maddie's mother on the night the girl disappeared.

Bothered to be under the journalists' sights, the English elderly denies being a witness in the process and ensures that what the press says is pure speculation.

Mrs Fenn: Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months, until all this happened. I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in newspapers, I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighs)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html

candyfloss wrote:Just posting this as I have just come across it.  It states clearly that Mrs Fenn had been interviewed at the start of the investigation.  There is mention of it elsewhere in another section on this link.  This is to clarify for those certain people that seem to say she wasn't interviewed for over 3 months..........

Deposition: Child cried for her father, 22 August 2007

Deposition: Child cried for her father Correio da Manhã (no longer available online) Maddie yelled for her father Wednesday 22 August 2007 With thanks to Astro for translation The McCanns' neighbour in the Ocean Club apartment was heard on Monday by Policia Judiciaria and confirmed she heard Maddie crying for her father the day before she disappeared Pamela Fenn, 70, had been questioned at the beginning of the investigation, but the day before yesterday she made a more precise deposition about the details of what she heard and the conversation she held with the girl's mother on the night that she vanished. In the deposition that was made to the PJ in Portimao, which has been functioning as the headquarters of the investigation, Pamela Fenn confirmed she had made herself available to contact police authorities, although Kate McCann dismissed that offer saying the alert had already been made. The checking of the time at which this conversation took place with the record of the alert to the GNR is one of the important elements for the reconstruction of what happened during those moments.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html


NOTE:  This is not in the files and may be one of the missing pages not on view.

My red,the day before? it was two days before.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1

Yes, that is what she said in her statement.

canada12 wrote:For all the energy expended in trying to discredit Mrs. Fenn, people should remember that Kate and Gerry have absolutely confirmed that she IS credible. She says she heard a child crying. Kate and Gerry have turned somersaults explaining that yes, she DID hear a child crying! It was Madeleine. Or it was Amelie. Perhaps it was Sean. Or Amelie and Sean. Or Madeleine and Sean. The only thing Kate and Gerry have disputed is which night it was. So they've admitted neglect and they've admitted they didn't come when their child or children cried. It doesn't matter that nobody else heard the crying. It doesn't matter that Mrs Fenn called a friend instead of interfering. Kate and Gerry have told us over and over that one or more of their children was crying and, by inference, that was what Mrs. Fenn must have heard. If Mrs. Fenn is discredited, so are Kate and Gerry. If there was no crying child, why did Kate and Gerry go to such lengths to make up a story to confirm what she heard?

Absolutely. Kate and Gerry have talked at length about a crying incident but they have sanitized it by claiming Madeleine wasn't bothered the next day. And they have removed the date of the crying incident as overheard by Mrs Fenn. Plus they have claimed that it was not just Madeleine but also Sean crying. I am sure Mrs Fenn would have been aware if it had been more than one child crying so I suspect this is further 'doctoring' (ahem!) of the truth of what really happened.

So, given all the above and more (- as in Kate and Fiona swearing at Mrs Fenn on Thursday night) I suspect that Mrs Fenn is a very reliable witnesses indeed. And why wouldn't she be - she is directly above their apartment and furthermore a resident there.

I think her niece is also a reliable eye-witness and her sighting of a blond man suspiciously letting himself out of one of the nearby garden gates is I suspect highly relevant to the case. The fact that Kate in her book morphs this sighting into another one and turns the blond Scandinavian-looking man that Mrs Fenn's neice saw into a dark African -looking man speaks volumes, imo.

Mrs. Fenn was out on the Wednesday so it couldn`t have been that night - goodness knows why the McCanns lied about it - I suppose they were trying to discredit her because she was old - easy to do sometimes.

Freedom wrote:Now I'm confused - which doesn't take much! Plebgate has answered a question as if she / he was pennylane.

This is what pennylane said at 9.00 today.

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

@plebgate wrote:Is it possible that someone entered through the  ?locked door then let someone in through the patio doors.  Someone they might not have wanted to be seen going into the apartment?

As for Russell not hearing any crying, how do we even know if it was that night, they couldn't even agree on that, so they just settled?   What that even means I do not know.

ROB and JT are in the thick of whatever happened (imo) so their recollection of crying/unattended toddlers isn't likely to see any form of daylight.

I remain convinced the crying happened on 1st May as stated by Mrs Fenn to the police!  Immense effort by TM has gone into not only discrediting Mrs Fenn, but altering the date and flipping the damning occurrence upside down on its head. The crying Mrs Fenn heard on 1st May 2007 is major to this case (imo) and to what finally happened to little Maddie. Sadly I believe it was the beginning of the end........


Google Gaspar Statements then posted at 9.29.

Are you saying Tony, and other members of this forum, are TM then?


Plebgate posted at 9.34.

No I am not.  We are debating and giving our opinion in the hope that some kind of sense can be made of it all, but up til now, no-one imo has shown that Mrs. Fenn was not genuine.

Pennylane posted at 9.36.

Exactly, spot on Plebgate!

Plebgate's point about someone already inside the apartment letting someone in who didn't want to be seen by opening the patio doors so they could enter at the back through the patio doors is a good point.

Police I think state that Kate returned to the apartment about 15 minutes before the crying started. So could it have been Kate letting someone in to the apartment at 11.45 by opening the patio doors?

And this might just tie in with a scenario of what I think may have happened to poor little Madeleine.

If the crying as overheard by Mrs Fenn is correct and Madeleine really was crying out in anguish for an hour and a quarter then it is perfectly possible that someone panicked about it being overheard, lost their temper and tried to silence the poor child.

I think both Kate and Gerry and to some extent their friends have pretty much told us what happened to Madeleine. There are so many 'brain leaks' in the rogatories and the media interviews with Kate and Gerry, especially the early ones, are simply dripping with clues.

IMO!

ETA: Plebgate's point about no-one having shown that Mrs Fenn was not genuine is a good one.

And the FACT that Kate and Fiona Payne were rude to her, and Kate writes disparagingly about Mrs Fenn in her book and the possibility that both Kate and Gerry have changed the day of the crying incident and sanitized it (highly unconvincingly, imo) I would say is strongly suggestive that TM wish to challenge Mrs Fenn's eye-witness testimony as it is highly incriminating for them.

There also does not appear to be a motive for Mrs Fenn to lie about what she overheard on Tuesday night. Even if - say - she wanted to help out Robert Murat, this isn't really that helpful as it still doesn't rule him out as a potential abductor on Thursday night.

I just don't understand why TB is going to such great lengths to discredit Mrs Fenn's testimony?

Neither do I, Poster.
Unless ...

Snipped from the bottom of posters comment:

I just don't understand why TB is going to such great lengths to discredit Mrs Fenn's testimony?


Maybe you could ask him directly next time your over there...

Andrew wrote:Snipped from the bottom of posters comment:

I just don't understand why TB is going to such great lengths to discredit Mrs Fenn's testimony?


Maybe you could ask him directly next time your over there...  

------

Ha! Not sure that would be very successful. I'll probably get a list of 50 reasons why Mrs Fenn's testimony is unreliable and then a poll will pop up asking people to vote on whether those who believe Mrs Fenn are preposterous.

But back to that pesky Tuesday night, there were also fascinating rumours that the McCanns were a Chaplins on Tuesday evening.

The poster dumbfounded in the link below appears to me quite genuine.

http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/07/theauthor-dumfounded-by-chaplins/

This appears genuine too, imo. A local hairdresser who Mrs Fenn goes to (who sounds totally credible) tells an undercover reporter that the McCanns dined (note: dined as opposed to visited) at Chaplins on Tuesday evening. In the hairdresser's account Mrs Fenn is said to have heard crying from 10pm until 11.45pm. As opposed to starting at 10.30pm.

If this is true it is pretty explosive as it blows the whole 'like eating in your back garden' story right out of the window. Portuguese police have reported that Kate went back to the apartment at around 10.15pm on Tuesday evening which would place the crying incident as correlating quite closely to her return to the apartment. Very, very odd, imo. What the heck was going on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZm8t70IGAY

Tuesday night is, of course, allegedly quiz night at the Tapas which TM took part in. And it is on record from the quiz host rogatory that Gerry invited the quiz host to the TM table after the quiz finished. And she joined them and stayed for 20 minutes to half an hour depending on different accounts of this visit.

Of great significance, imo, in the early media reports which I presume have the pink one's grubby paws all over them the quiz night is reported as having taken place on Thursday. And the presence of the quiz host at the table on Thursday as opposed to Tuesday would obviously give Gerry an alibi for an exceedingly crucial time on Thursday evening.

From the press report in the link below which states that quiz night was Thursday : Her evidence is understood to corroborate the McCanns' movements in the hour before the disappearance was discovered.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id53.html


The presence of the quiz host at the McCann table at around those times on Tuesday evening puts an entirely different perspective on things. Because of course Tuesday night is the night that Mrs Fenn hears crying which starts at 10.30pm and goes on until 11.45pm. So it raises the possibility that there could be some kind of link between quiz night and the crying incident. And, indeed, the Portuguese police themselves have raised the suggestion that Kate would not have welcomed Gerry's interest in the quiz host to the extent of inviting her over to sit with them. I think they raise the suggestion that this might be the night they had a row.

Did Kate storm off back to the apartment, make a flurry of call/texts to her friend at between around 10.15 and 10.30pm - just before the crying started?

Was there an urgent need to separate the presence of the quiz host at the TM table from the night that Kate might have gone back to the apartment early in a huff?

If so - why?

Oh to be a fly on the wall in the apartment during that week...



Interesting thread here:


http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/m/Individual-Topics/Chaplins-1-1182017.html