The Strange Case of Nora Quoirin

Thanks for the link; as you say, shades of McCann behaviour here.

By the way, I find it very difficult to believe that Nora weighed only 4 stone, 7 pounds. The average weight for a girl of that age would be twice that I think. She looked perfectly normal as regards general appearance.

I looked up BMI charts for a girl of that age (15 years) and assumed a height of 5ft and she has a BMI of around 12. Under 18 BMI is regarded as underweight and you should seek professional help to discover the reasons why. If if I have underestimated her height, Nora is then even more underweight. Another website I checked said the ideal weight for a 15 year old girl is 115 lbs. Nora, according to her mother, is 63 lbs, just over half what a healthy weight would be.

Now it's unlikely that there would be any independent medical records showing her weight around the time she was 'abducted.'  Babies get weighed at check-ups and maybe there's a check up at primary school at which weight would be taken.

This weight is taken apparently from evidence given (remotely) by Nora's mother to the inquest. Could there have been a mistranslation?  

If she was so underweight, surely Mrs Quoirin would have been getting treatment for her for this, and would have said this in evidence as her point was that Nora is so frail she wouldn't have the strength to climb out of the window. If she was getting medical help then there would be independent evidence of the weight and it surely would have been submitted to the inquest by now?

In my opinion, this is another lie - or gross economy with the truth - along with the one about Nora being unable to walk far which I think contributed to her death; the police would have organised searches farther afield if they had known she could walk normally.

There is no way that she could have weighed so little.

Could it have been in fact 65Kg rather than 65 lb ?

It definitely reads 4 stones 7 pounds in the link. 65 kg is about 10 stones and there would be no reason for Mrs Q to say that Nora was very frail.

The father has now given evidence. His is very similar to his wife's except he doesn't mention Nora's (alleged) weight.

He also heard whispers while he was sleepy and did nothing.

Most likely Nora and a sibling plotting to go on an adventure and climb out of the window.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54914553

Mr Q's evidence. He's "dissing" the dog - now where have we heard that before?

The bit about sister Innes noticing that Nora was not in bed when she went to the toilet and assuming that she was with their parents is strange as the bathroom it appears could only be accessed through their bedroom so didn't Innes notice she wasn't there?

Innes is due to give evidence herself so it will be interesting to hear what she says.

A report which mentions the McCann case - always a good idea to link two dodgy ones together!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-14/the-mysterious-death-of-nora-quoirin-in-malaysia/12868086

I haven't been able to get far with this due to Mrs Q's humming and hawing - very irritating - so if anyone can ignore that, it will be interesting to get their views. I'm assuming it's sceptical of the official story.

The narrator on this video is Nick van der Leek who has written a book about this case Not all who wander are lost.  It has 7 reviews on Amazon - all 5 *.

An interesting point he made was that the dogs traced her to some sort of nearby outhouse where he believes she sheltered for a while. He thinks that searchers must have passed nearby but that Nora didn't call out to them because she didn't know them, she was only in her underwear and she was scared. He felt that if her parents had actively searched with the team calling out her name she might have responded. He also questions the mother's account given the logistics of the holiday chalet - e g the spiral staircase to the mezzanine and the difficulties of removing her from a double bed shared with her sister and carrying her down those stairs in the darkness.

He explains the relative lack of cuts and bruises which the parents have emphasised because he believes she was sheltering in the outhouse, and later she may have been near the stream bed where her body was found i e she didn't spend the whole period of her absence clambering over rocky terrain.

Thanks for that. We must surely have talked about him in respect of his books on the McCann case but I can't find where. I think I'll order the one about Nora.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nick-van-der-Leek/e/B00OW1IC44%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

I've found where we talked about him. There was some comparison between his work and that of Textusa!

His book on Nora is only available on Kindle which I don't have. Still, there's unlikely to be anything I didn't know.

https://maddiemccannmystery.forumotion.co.uk/t1474p700-madeleine-mccann-books?highlight=books

Freedom wrote:I haven't been able to get far with this due to Mrs Q's humming and hawing - very irritating - so if anyone can ignore that, it will be interesting to get their views. I'm assuming it's sceptical of the official story.

He makes some good points, albeit it's all quite slow. The father struck me as dodgy from quite early on. Rather like the McCann case, I wasn't so sure about the mother. But having listened to her, I think there are some parallels with Kate McCann. She goes into a lot of detail, but none that supports her story. The logistics of her daughter having been removed via a spiral staircase in the pitch dark strikes me as unlikely as Madeleine McCann having been 'abducted' by Tannerman within a tiny window of opportunity.

Both accounts lack evidence and they lack motive. If, as her parents claim, Madeleine was stolen by a paedophile or a paedophile ring then she would almost definitely have been killed within a relatively short space of time. But why would anyone pick a child in the middle of a holiday resort? There would, sadly, be far easier targets- children from children's homes for instance. Or neglected children of whom there are many and will be even more now in the aftermath of the scamdemic. In the case of Nora, what could possibly be the motive for abduction? She was found relatively unharmed - not molested - and the conclusion was that she died from natural causes.

In both cases (as indeed in the Bennett case) the chances of a stranger abduction are vanishingly small. In both cases the beyond dodgy Jim Gamble chips in with his support for the parents. That, for me, signifies one thing and one thing only, even if you ignore all the rest of the red flags.

IMO.

By the Bennett case, do you mean that of JonBenet Ramsey? She wasn't actually abducted though.

Freedom wrote:By the Bennett case, do you mean that of JonBenet Ramsey? She wasn't actually abducted though.

But a kidnapping note was found wasn't it? So that raised the idea of an abduction even though she was found dead quite early on I do believe. As in the other two cases, the most likely culprits are family members.

Freedom wrote:By the Bennett case, do you mean that of JonBenet Ramsey? She wasn't actually abducted though.

I think that one of the things that links the JonBenet Ramsey case with that of Madeleine McCann is that both children were objectified, imo. JonBenet more obviously - with the beauty pageants - but the comments made by Madeleine's parents and their friends were strongly suggestive of their having objectified her and not recognising what was age-appropriate.

I know there has been speculation that JonBenet Ramsey's brother could have committed the crime. I haven't read enough about the case to have formed a definitive conclusion but it seems most likely that the poor child met her death at the hands of family members or a family member and that the family were able to use their wealth and influence to avoid prosecution.

The other thing that connects the Madeleine and Nora cases is that in both the family started raising money very early on. I think this is odd. In both cases very active police investigations commenced very early on. Why would Nora's family need to fund-raise in the first few days? Nora could have been found and surely members of Nora's family could have paid for their own flights out? In the McCann case aggressive fundraising was underway very early on. How did they know she wouldn't be found in the first few days?

Yes, I think there are more similarities with the McCann and Quoirin cases than with the Ramsey one. There's a long topic here on the latter.

https://maddiemccannmystery.forumotion.co.uk/t1529-the-murder-of-jonbenet-ramsey?highlight=ramsey

In my opinion the Ramsey and Ben Needham cases may have the similarity of cover-ups to protect another child who was responsible - and that could also apply with Nora.

Freedom wrote:Yes, I think there are more similarities with the McCann and Quoirin cases than with the Ramsey one. There's a long topic here on the latter.

https://maddiemccannmystery.forumotion.co.uk/t1529-the-murder-of-jonbenet-ramsey?highlight=ramsey

In my opinion the Ramsey and Ben Needham cases may have the similarity of cover-ups to protect another child who was responsible - and that could also apply with Nora.

That's interesting - I hadn't made that possible link. I have long suspected that in the Needham case Ben fell off his young relative's moped and there was a panic and a cover-up. That is by far the most likely scenario and no other scenario makes any sense at all, imo.

In the Nora case I had suspected the father but of course the siblings or one of the siblings could indeed have had something to do with what happened - whether by accident or design. I think the chances of Nora having been abducted by a complete stranger who would have to carry a teenage girl down a spiral staircase in pitch dark are vanishingly small. That leaves two other scenarios - she wandered off of her own accord or her family had something to do with it. Possibly a combination of the two. If one of the siblings had something to do with it perhaps s/he confided in the father and a cover-up ensued which would, indeed, make it similar to the circumstances of the Needham case. Rather as in the Needham case, it seems likely that at least one family member knows what happened.

But the one thing that links the Needham, Mccann and Nora case is that from the very beginning the families were insistent that the child had been abducted. This alone makes the story suspicious, imo. Why not entertain other scenarios?

In the Needham case, it's the 11-year-old uncle I wonder about, not the 17-year-old with a moped.

His mother was quoted as saying that he needed to be protected - why?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9000961/Nora-Quoirin-starved-death-says-British-expert-said-kidnapping-ruled-out.html

How rude - she is sometimes referred to here by her surname.

Freedom wrote:In the Needham case, it's the 11-year-old uncle I wonder about, not the 17-year-old with a moped.

His mother was quoted as saying that he needed to be protected - why?

I hadn't considered that scenario. Certainly possible. Although an accident on the moped is also far more likely than an abduction. Perhaps the 11 year old did something and then the 17 year old took Ben off in a panic?

The verdict is expected on 31st December or 4th January.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/nora-quoirin-inquest-ends-with-verdict-due-within-month-1.4433337

Anyone have a feeling how the verdict will go?

Second expert pathologist says he could not rule out absolutely the possibility of sexual assault due to the decomposition of the body.

I would go for an open verdict myself but I don't know if there is such a thing under Malaysian law.

There is just no clear evidence in my opinion to come up with anything more positive.