Doubts on Mrs Fenn's statement?

Found it, a middle aged couple - SY looking for them....


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared



Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared

SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today

It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million  investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.
A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.
Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.

Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.
Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.
Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”
Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.
We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.
They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm

On their way home they walked directly past the entrance to the Ocean Club pool, where the “Tapas 7” (the name given to the friends eating with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared) were enjoying the meal with Kate and Gerry.
They walked past apartment 5a but noticed nothing untoward. The woman said in her statement: “I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.

Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police.”
The couple took part in the search for Madeleine and then returned to their apartment.
The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g bastards have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”
At the couple’s home here, two Yard officers questioned them separately for three hours and got them to sign lengthy statements. They further interviewed them this year to double check their information.
The couple are key because at precisely 9.15pm on May 3, Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, said she left the tapas bar and walked past Gerry, who was talking to holidaymaker Jez Wilkins outside apartment 5a.
Neither Gerry nor Kate said they saw Jane. She reported that she had seen a man carrying a child, believed to be Madeleine, walking across the top of the road.
At the time she had not realised the significance. Officers asked the couple if they saw Jane, Gerry or Jez but they insist they did not.
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered.
“We will continue to answer the Yard’s questions. We have given our fingerprints and DNA. We were happy to assist. They should be left to get on with their inquiries.”

candyfloss I think it is the GNR officer who is describing the women as foreign to him, so not Portuguese. I am intrigued as to who these women might be.

Rufus T wrote:candyfloss I think it is the GNR officer who is describing the women as foreign to him, so not Portuguese. I am intrigued as to who these women might be.

Yes, you could be right.  But Murat would have said English women if he knew they were English and surely the GNR officer would have said English.  The only women I can think of are Jensen and Wiltshire, who said they saw Murat that night IIRC.

To me, it reads as the women phoned mr. Murat about a child crying near them, after the disappearance? Makes sense to me with mr. Murat calling the police. After all, they were looking for a child.

I think this couple were the Moyes who lived above Mrs Fenn.
SUSAN MOYES Sure. We went out for a meal about seven o’clock down in the town. We walked back about nine o’clock, round past, erm, the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment. Went out on the balcony about quarter past nine. Everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely. We then went to bed. We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say a little girl had been abducted. Those were the words she used. So we got dressed and joined in the search. We were out till about four in the morning with, oooh, about I dont know, thirty people, thirty other people maybe. The Mark Warner team were out with other guests at the Ocean Club.

This is from an interview with Radio Stoke.

I find it strange that they say they were on the balcony yet they never heard all the fuss. First they knew was when someone ( husband and wife remember differently who woke them) knocked on their door at 11.30.
On the way back from their meal they saw kids in the play area...in the dark?
They don't seem to be the 2 people who entered the apartment on the 2nd though. Nor are their statements in the files, if indeed they were interviewed.
They live in Cheshire. PDL is/was their holiday home.

Tony does not accept Smithman, who is strongly believed in by Textusa, however he is in full agreement with her it would appear as regards the Murat -Fenn and lying about the crying connection.

I suggest a close read of Kate's phone use from early on morning of 2nd.

candyfloss wrote:

Rufus T wrote:candyfloss I think it is the GNR officer who is describing the women as foreign to him, so not Portuguese. I am intrigued as to who these women might be.

Yes, you could be right.  But Murat would have said English women if he knew they were English and surely the GNR officer would have said English.  The only women I can think of are Jensen and Wiltshire, who said they saw Murat that night IIRC.

They also said that they spoke to him and pestered him to buy them drinks - being a discerning gentleman, he made his excuses and went. ( I dare say that any reasonably good-looking man in PDL would be constantly harrassed by divorced, middle aged cougars on the prowl, if all the other stories we've heard about the place are to be believed). Maybe they weren't too impressed at being blown off by Murat and saw the opportunity to create some mischief.

I thought that it was over-run by paedophiles rather than consenting adults!

Russian Doll wrote:
 Tony does not accept Smithman, who is strongly believed in by Textusa, however he is in full agreement with her it would appear as regards the Murat -Fenn and lying about the crying connection.

 I suggest a close read of Kate's phone use from early on morning of 2nd.

This is on twitter at the moment,who is Amanda? any one know?

The Suppressionals
‏@1matthewwright1

The morning after the night before...#mccann



Canine Truth ‏@K9Truth 9m9 minutes ago

@1matthewwright1 Amanda whose husband is a pathologist? We can now narrow down MBM's "disappearance" to between 11:45pm and 7:36am.
#McCann

more to follow... this re Tuesday 1st May.

Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'.

The evidence from the call logs gives the strongest clue that the 'Tapas 9' left their telephones in their rooms when they went to dinner. Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns spokesperson, confirmed this. In an interview, reported on 6th April 2008 by Ned Temko of 'The Guardian', Mr Mitchell said: 'You had nine people in a bar without watches on, without mobile phones and absolute panic set in when they realised what had happened'. We would say that, if the police had a perfect time line across nine people, that would be a damn sight more suspicious than the fractured, illogical, composite statements they might have got'

Mrs Fenn, the McCanns neighbour, reported that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying. Tuesday 1st May 2007 is the only night (except, of course, for Thursday 3rd May 2007) that either of the McCanns or any of their friends made calls after dinner.

Mrs McCann volunteered to the PJ that on the night of Wednesday 2nd May 2007, she had slept in the spare bed in her childrens room because her husband had not paid her enough attention over dinner. Or put another way, does she mean the amorous Scot was paying someone else (like Miss Chekeya) too much attention, causing her to stomp out of the Tapas Bar before him: ultimately leading to the spare bed in a strop' Gerald McCann said he thought the reason his wife had slept in the childrens bedroom was because of his snoring and that he did not even bother asking her the following morning what the problem was.

Could it be that their timings are wrong by 24 hours and that Kate McCanns nocturnal shenanigans took place on the night of Tuesday 1st May 2007' It would fit, but why be untruthful about it' A possible reason is that they wanted to conceal both Kate McCanns state of mind and the fact that she had returned to Apartment 5A, just before Madeleines cried for help.

On Wednesday 2nd May 2007, Kate McCann called her friend 'Amanda' at 7.36.41 and again at 7.36.45. This was around two hours earlier than any of mobile activations on any other morning: so Kate McCann was 'up with the larks'. Amanda returned the calls at 7.50. There is no record of how long any of these calls lasted or whether they were SMSs. They were all deleted from memory.

If you go to CMOMM there is still a topic for discussion re Amanda, a long time since I read it. Here is her statement to police for starters.



Leicestershire Police Force

Statement by: Amanda Jane Coxon

Date: 2nd May 2008

I am a friend of Gerry and Kate, I used to work for them and also looked after the children.
I got to know Gerry and Kate in the year 2000, I worked as a cleaner in their house in Queniborough, once a week. From the beginning they were always a very friendly couple.
During the time I worked there, Kate had her first daughter, Madeleine. Kate asked me whether I would look after Madeleine twice a week when she returned to work part time. I agreed and she would leave Madeleine at my house and come and pick her up later in the day.

Kate, Gerry and Madeleine moved to Amsterdam for a year and when they returned Kate was pregnant with the twins. The twins were born in February 2006 and from that time I helped to look after them.

The relationship I had with Gerry and Kate turned into friendship over the years and I consider myself to be a good friend of Kate's. After their return from Portugal we became very close.

Gerry is a person with his feet very firmly placed on the ground, a pleasant person who made us feel welcome from the very beginning. He is very conscientious with regard to his work but also loves his family very much. He adores the children and would often have fun rolling about on the floor with Madeleine. Kate is also a very friendly person, she is calm and serene and also adores the children. I never heard her raise her voice with Madeleine or become irritated with her. I have no knowledge of any conflict between Kate and Gerry, or between them and Madeleine. I do not know of any problem or conflict between Madeleine and any other person or child.

I had a good relationship with Madeleine, I would describe her as full of fun, intelligent for her age and very active. She is a very happy girl and the last time I saw her, she was already capable of maintaining a conversation. She clearly understood the instructions given to her and was a good listener.


I would say that Madeleine is a very healthy girl and I never noticed any changes in behaviour. I would not describe her as a hyperactive child. I do not know of any problem related to sleeping, but I was rarely present when she went to bed.

Kate and Gerry never mentioned having any type of problem with Madeleine.
She was well behaved, never caused her parents any problems and apparently always understood what she was told. The parents never looked tired of taking care of Madeleine.

I have no knowledge about whether Madeleine was subject to taking medicine and I never saw anyone giving her any medication. Gerry and Kate never referred to any medication that Madeleine was taking.

As I said before, Madeleine was a very well behaved and lively child.

With relation to the question about haemorrhages, I was never present at any episode when Madeleine bled, other than a normal nose bleed when she inserted her finger into her nose and bled.

Nothing different from any other child having a nose bleed.

In my opinion, Kate and Gerry and the children are a happy family who enjoy having fun together. There are no words to describe what happened last year and they do not deserve to have been treated in the way they have been, by the community and by the press. They are two decent and hardworking people who are devoted to their children.
This is my statement and is true according to my understanding.

@Russian Doll,thank you.

Husband of Amanda Coxon:

Dr Paul Whitaker, chemical pathologist in Leicester. KM texted Amanda, and received a return text, at
0736 on 2 May. Wiped from KM's mobile history - the first of several
deletions on 2 and 3 May. (There may have been others before 2 May, but
as the records have been withheld, we wouldn't know). KM rang their
home number at 0605 on 4 May, and a conversation ensued for 11 minutes..

still on the electoral roll as living in Leicester with an Amanda Coxon and another person.

Interesting to see his field of interest and expertise, appears to be drug toxicity as far as I can tell.

Russian Doll wrote:    
 

Mrs Fenn, the McCanns neighbour, reported that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying. Tuesday 1st May 2007 is the only night (except, of course, for Thursday 3rd May 2007) that either of the McCanns or any of their friends made calls after dinner.

Mrs McCann volunteered to the PJ that on the night of Wednesday 2nd May 2007, she had slept in the spare bed in her childrens room because her husband had not paid her enough attention over dinner. Or put another way, does she mean the amorous Scot was paying someone else (like Miss Chekeya) too much attention, causing her to stomp out of the Tapas Bar before him: ultimately leading to the spare bed in a strop' Gerald McCann said he thought the reason his wife had slept in the childrens bedroom was because of his snoring and that he did not even bother asking her the following morning what the problem was.

Could it be that their timings are wrong by 24 hours and that Kate McCanns nocturnal shenanigans took place on the night of Tuesday 1st May 2007' It would fit, but why be untruthful about it' A possible reason is that they wanted to conceal both Kate McCanns state of mind and the fact that she had returned to Apartment 5A, just before Madeleines cried for help.

If Kate was there just before the crying incident does it then suggest she was there all through it? can't see it some how,or did she go out again and Madeleine had been woken by this visit and then started crying?

Rufus T wrote:candyfloss I think it is the GNR officer who is describing the women as foreign to him, so not Portuguese. I am intrigued as to who these women might be.

I agree.  Remember it is a Portuguese officer talking and it is after the 3rd May but we don`t know when.

"He (Costa) does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual (Robert Murat) who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

"That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him (so they must have had RM`s phone number), telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them. (Yes, but WHEN)"

So I interpret that as Robert Murat phoned the Portuguese Officer and told him that some women (not Portuguese as it`s the Portuguese officer talking) phoned him (But WHEN?). Robert must have told him what nationality they were but Costa has neglected to state it in this statement. The whole statement is lacking in detail.

All we know is that Costa made this statement on 16th May but we don`t know
1. When Robert phoned him
2. When the ladies phoned Robert
2. When the women heard the child crying

Heartbreaking to watch/hear a little child crying for such a long period of time

Mimi
"2. When the women heard the child crying" ???
Discrepancies: Who was crying Tuesday night? Madeleine ? (HiDeHo4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCMNWg0fE5Y

http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.de/2011/06/gerry-mccann-snooping-around-witness.html
http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.de/2011/05/kates-book-crying-episode.html

meanwhile I´m with textusa

"Mrs Fenn’s statement is a perfect example of that. Why is it so important?
Notice that when I make the question I don’t bring up the subject of whether it was true or not, that whatever was said.
You see, it’s simply irrelevant the way you look at her statement, as from any possible angle it’s always HIGHLY unfavorable, not only to the McCanns, but all those that were involved that night.
We now know that it’s a fact that, on Aug 20th, 2007, she said, and signed, that she witnessed a child negligence incident that happened between 22:30 and 23:45, on the night of May 1st, 2007.
Let me just say, beforehand, that if she’s told the truth, then it proves the Tapas hide a greater lie than the one they’ve wanted us to believe in, but, and that’s the beauty of this, it's better for those with a guilty conscience that she has indeed told the truth than have her proven a liar.
That is how important the Mrs Fenn statement is.
Negligence is the most recurrent theme of this never ending story. We keep bumping into it in almost every its chapter. So much so, that when the McCann name is pronounced, the word “negligent” just simply pops up.
It's said that a lie repeated a million times becomes inevitably the truth. History teaches us that.
..."

http://textusa.blogspot.de/2010/11/all-paths-lead-to-rome.html

@Mimi
. 1 When Robert phoned him
2. When the ladies phoned Robert
3. When the women heard the child crying


1 This could have been any day between 4 May and 15 May when he was made arguido. Though it must have been after the women had been interviewed. Need to see what dates tally here.
2 This must have been between his arrival in PDL on the 1st and the night of the 3rd
3 I think this must have been between the same 2 dates as they would most likely phone RM the same night for advice or next morning to see if he knew anything about it.

Will check if he mentioned the call in his statement

Helene wrote:meanwhile I´m with textusa

"Mrs Fenn’s statement is a perfect example of that. Why is it so important?
Notice that when I make the question I don’t bring up the subject of whether it was true or not, that whatever was said.
You see, it’s simply irrelevant the way you look at her statement, as from any possible angle it’s always HIGHLY unfavorable, not only to the McCanns, but all those that were involved that night.
We now know that it’s a fact that, on Aug 20th, 2007, she said, and signed, that she witnessed a child negligence incident that happened between 22:30 and 23:45, on the night of May 1st, 2007.
Let me just say, beforehand, that if she’s told the truth, then it proves the Tapas hide a greater lie than the one they’ve wanted us to believe in, but, and that’s the beauty of this, it's better for those with a guilty conscience that she has indeed told the truth than have her proven a liar.
That is how important the Mrs Fenn statement is.
Negligence is the most recurrent theme of this never ending story. We keep bumping into it in almost every its chapter. So much so, that when the McCann name is pronounced, the word “negligent” just simply pops up.
It's said that a lie repeated a million times becomes inevitably the truth. History teaches us that.
..."

http://textusa.blogspot.de/2010/11/all-paths-lead-to-rome.html

Further on Tex go on to say and its an eye opener.

You see, if Mrs Fenn has spoken the truth, it proves one of the following: that either the McCanns, the O’Briens and the Oldfields were ALL negligent on their CCS on May 1st, 2007, or that there was simply NO CCS whatsoever, in any of the families.

It does not imply… it proves.

And it’s not only Mrs Fenn that is saying it… it’s the McCanns, the Paynes, the Oldfields and the O’Briens that also say it… by never mentioning it anywhere in their respective statements.

They ALL, with NO EXCEPTIONS, forget to tell about this episode to the police.

And you know why they didn’t? Because they had nothing to say. For anything to fail, it has first to exist. And if it didn’t exist, it's only possible due to the two reasons mentioned, they were either ALL neglectful or a CCS didn’t exist.

And, for ALL of them to have been negligent, there is ONE thing that MUST've happened: they had to be at the Tapas Bar, because if they were somewhere else, then the negligence just flies away with “the good parenting distance”… it becomes ABSENCE.

And that is where Mrs Fenn’s statement is so beautiful, in that if she’s lying, she proves the exact same thing as she does if she’s telling the truth.

So she has no need to lie,they are damned if she does damned if she doesn't.

Mrs Fenn told the truth and nothing but the truth IMO.

No reason to lie. No agenda. No nothing.

Then you get the chap over the road saying she's making things up.

Ridiculous.

I believe Mrs Fenn to be truthful, why would she lie to police? I even hate reading the portal and seeing Mrs Fenn a liar

I've amended the topic title.

I would certainly need to have proof that Mrs Fenn was a close friend of Mrs Murat and, even if she was, that doesn't meant she lied.

If you read the comments to the linked Textusa piece,they don't believe the Fenn story.

Textusa21 Nov 2010, 19:56:00



No, I don't. I don't think Mrs Fenn heard any patio doors, and I don't think Mrs Fenn ever heard Maddie cry. Not on that night, or any other night, not because Maddie might have not cried, or have been killed before, but because she was not isolated so that a crying could be identified with her.

If you want to know if she cried or not in any of those nights, you just have to ask the person(s) that stayed with the children all those evenings/nights.

I think that Mrs Fenn is a "planted" statement as much as is the Gaspars'.

Things, if you look at them attentively are quite simple, so why complicate them?

caricature wrote:If you read the comments to the linked Textusa piece,they don't believe the Fenn story.

Textusa21 Nov 2010, 19:56:00



No, I don't. I don't think Mrs Fenn heard any patio doors, and I don't think Mrs Fenn ever heard Maddie cry. Not on that night, or any other night, not because Maddie might have not cried, or have been killed before, but because she was not isolated so that a crying could be identified with her.

If you want to know if she cried or not in any of those nights, you just have to ask the person(s) that stayed with the children all those evenings/nights.

I think that Mrs Fenn is a "planted" statement as much as is the Gaspars'.

Things, if you look at them attentively are quite simple, so why complicate them?

So now the Gaspars are making things up... or lying if you wish to say that?  Planted, WTF!

Freedom wrote:I've amended the topic title.

I would certainly need to have proof that Mrs Fenn was a close friend of Mrs Murat and, even if she was, that doesn't meant she lied.

Ah thanks Freedom, hope no one minds.
I know people can and do lie to police, but when you have a family including a 12yr old child and an OAP making statements to police I tend to take it as truth, especially when there seems to be no connection to the mcs.
IMO