The Mystery of Ben Needham

Andrew wrote:I wonder what he means by the certain info will be revealed when appropriate etc from the Police.....

Yes Andrew there does seem to be hints looking through his tweets there is more to this story.

Andrew wrote:Duncan Wood ‏@duncanwooditv  6m6 minutes ago
I'm going to do a Facebook live from #Kos on #BenNeedham day 12 in few minutes. Hopefully answer questions as we move between sites

You know Andrew I do take my hat off to you, how on earth do you manage to run 'your businesses while online almost 24/7'.

Bugger - I missed all that. Be available on ITV's timeline thingy again shortly.

costello wrote:

Andrew wrote:Duncan Wood ‏@duncanwooditv  6m6 minutes ago
I'm going to do a Facebook live from #Kos on #BenNeedham day 12 in few minutes. Hopefully answer questions as we move between sites

You know Andrew I do take my hat off to you, how on earth do you manage to run 'your businesses while online almost 24/7'.

I'm an early riser and have good, excellent in fact, people who work for me. I'm a M.D of 4 companies and 3 of them I have very little to do with apart from a fortnightly meeting. A lot of my own work is done on a computer and phone, so I'm in front of a computer a lot and on the phone a lot. (I wouldn't say I'm on here all the time - just when I am I post stuff up)

Other than that I like to make sure all the good members of MMM get the latest news.

And it's very much appreciated Andrew.

Andrew wrote:

Andrew wrote:.

I'm an early riser and have good, excellent in fact, people who work for me. I'm a M.D of 4 companies and 3 of them I have very little to do with apart from a fortnightly meeting. A lot of my own work is done on a computer and phone, so I'm in front of a computer a lot and on the phone a lot. (I wouldn't say I'm on here all the time - just when I am I post stuff up)

Other than that I like to make sure all the good members of MMM get the latest news.  

WOW   Andrew...              I am really impressed.    Also very grateful for all the updates, miss you when you are not here.  
     
(should we be calling you Sir?)
[/quote]

Andrew you did not put quote after your reply to my post. So I am answering now. Thanks for your reply, still not sure, but as ever I will remain observant. This could become interesting, to say the least.

Hi Costello. I did quote you upthread..

Thanks DDL and Bluebell. Have a flower

Another video on the link of today's news...

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-10-07/ben-needham-how-archaeologists-are-forensically-examining-search-site/

Just watched that ITV Calendar update video, Andrew and here's where either the theory falls down or suggests to me some or all the people on that farmhouse that day know of what happened.

Duncan Wood says the police believe an accident happened around a breeze block area of the farmhouse site and then later that day or otherwise soon after Dino dumped it at the second site.

Combine this with no acknowledgment from Eddie, Christine or anyone else that while they were inside eating lunch Dino was working right outside with the digger and not at his own site 75-100 metres away. Maybe I'm being unfair here but there seems to be a lot of back fitting of what happened that day today compared to what was said in previous docs to fit with the Dino theory now. I think someone within the family is speaking to the police and that Dino could have helped out after the fact knowingly or not. There again, what if nothing at all is found? Then what...

I guess we won't get anything from the police now until at least Tuesday so now the wait.

Andrew wrote:

Another video on the link of today's news...

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2016-10-07/ben-needham-how-archaeologists-are-forensically-examining-search-site/

Anyone else having trouble accessing the above ?   I tried google as well but the same.  "This info cannot be accessed from your current country or location" ....  etc

Must be a technical issue, bluebell. It worked for me earlier but I get the same message now.

I'm confused here now (not hard I know) but have they moved on from the extension which was knocked down?

canada12 wrote:I'd be much more likely to think that Ben died as a result of the motorcycle accident and his body was hidden in the excavation site by Stephen. that seems a more likely scenario.

By far the most likely scenario, imo, given the account of the afternoon that the family themselves have given, is that Ben did indeed go off on the back of his young relative's moped. He presumably would have told the adults that this was going to happen and perhaps just said they were both going for a short spin and would be back soon. Or maybe going for a swim at another villa - given the day was boiling hot and they both would have wanted to cool off. Again, I think he would have given a time for when he would be back so the adults wouldn't worry.

What I imagine might have happened was that the young relative did not reappear with Ben at the expected time for their return, whenever that may have been. Or did not arrive at the destination they had set out for.

I would imagine that when the pair did not return, or were not where they said they would be (another villa/apartment with a pool?) then the male adults would have become worried that something had gone wrong - the most likely scenario being an accident involving the moped. Given Ben's very young age and given that I assume he wasn't wearing a helmet (do they make them that small? In any event my recollection of Crete is that it it quite common not to wear helmets especially in rural areas) then by far the most scenario for a disaster would be a road accident. The roads on Crete are very pot-holed and rough. Would be incredibly easy to hit a pothole or go around a hair-pin bend too fast. Ben was a toddler. At the age he was his motor control would not have been that good and it would be a lot to expect him to hold on tight enough. Ben would not have understood the dangers of falling off the moped at speed. Probably the young relative - at age 17 - would not have done either. IMO it was foolhardy in the extreme to allow this to happen and it was an accident waiting to happen.


I theorize that the male family members became worried and went off in search of the pair. They would have known the likely places and roads they would have gone along. I suspect they discovered the 'disaster' (head injury....multiple injuries maybe?) which I presume resulted in death or an ambulance would have been called.

I suspect that, probably in a total panic (with fight/flight mode at its most acute) the men decided on a course of action to possibly 'spare feelings' and possibly also to avoid a charge of neglect and/or negligence in allowing such a young child on a moped. I suspect this is what happens in some 'hit and run' cases. The brain cannot assimilate what has happened and the fight/flight mode kicks in while the rational, logical brain is over-run by the non-rational part.

I don't know what the law is in Crete in terms of allowing young children on the back of mopeds or motorbikes but Ben was - what - 17 months or something? Developmentally there is no way such a young child could be expected to hang on tight enough to avoid been thrown off if the bike hit a pot-hole, or swerved suddenly. And of course if the moped skidded or lost control then Ben and the young relative would have been thrown off onto very hard, rocky stony ground - would have been very difficult to escape serious injury, imo, especially to the head which would be particularly vulnerable in such a young child.

I wonder what happened to the moped because that of course would provide clues as to what had happened. If the moped was damaged that would suggest a crash. If undamaged that would suggest a swerve or sudden stop leading to Ben being thrown. Again, what happened to the young relative. Was he injured or not? If injured it suggests the bike crashed and the pair fell off. If uninjured it suggests that the bike did not crash but swerved/skidded or stopped suddenly and Ben was thrown off. The police that arrived on the scene would surely have considered the above scenario.

Given the family's account of that afternoon the young relative is an absolutely crucial witnesses and the moped is crucial evidence. Whatever did happen, there would have been evidence left somewhere if a road accident had occurred. The ground was rock-hard (whether road or surrounding area) and evidence might have been scattered over a fair-sized area. IMO some kind of 'clean-up' job would have had to be done that afternoon and there would have been some evidence of this.

The family's account of that afternoon I do not find plausible. Kerry's account in her book does not ring true. She claims she was worried when she discovered Ben missing but then stopped being worried when she assumed Ben had gone off on the back of the moped. This is totally illogical. You would be extremely worried if you thought Ben was on the back of a moped because you would logically know that this is a dangerous position to be in for a toddler.

It really is worth reading the passages in Kerry's book describing that afternoon because there were many hours when the family 'assumed' Ben had gone off with his young relative. Many hours unaccounted for before finally an alarm is raised. I presume, during these hours and in a blind panic, certain members of the family took a particular course of action.

It would be interesting to know more about the owner of the villa where the men were working. He disappeared off to Australia I do believe pretty swiftly. And I presume he knew people locally and of course would have needed to employ builders. People tend to know each other in small communities like that.

Agree with what others have said though. The real cause of the accident is likely to have been a road accident involving the moped. But the story will be spun into an accident involving a tractor/builder. Of course it is not impossible that one of the male relatives or possibly the villa owner got hold of some kind of digger themselves to cover up incriminating evidence.

IMO, judging by Kerry's account of that afternoon, she too knows Ben will not be found. I presume it is easier (rather like the McCanns) to cling onto a delusion of your own creation than face the truth and the possible consequences.

It really does make you wonder how many other cases of 'missing' children - and indeed adults - are really cases where (wider) friends and family know what have happened but have conspired, for whatever reason, to pretend they have no idea what happened.

Theorizing, as always.

TheTruthWillOut wrote:Just watched that ITV Calendar update video, Andrew and here's where either the theory falls down or suggests to me some or all the people on that farmhouse that day know of what happened.

Duncan Wood says the police believe an accident happened around a breeze block area of the farmhouse site and then later that day or otherwise soon after Dino dumped it at the second site.

Combine this with no acknowledgment from Eddie, Christine or anyone else that while they were inside eating lunch Dino was working right outside with the digger and not at his own site 75-100 metres away. Maybe I'm being unfair here but there seems to be a lot of back fitting of what happened that day today compared to what was said in previous docs to fit with the Dino theory now. I think someone within the family is speaking to the police and that Dino could have helped out after the fact knowingly or not. There again, what if nothing at all is found? Then what...

I guess we won't get anything from the police now until at least Tuesday so now the wait.

The builders would take quite a long siesta after lunch when it is boiling hot. Probably from around 1pm to maybe as late as 4pm? This is the norm.

If Dino really had been outside with the digger while they were eating lunch (which I do not believe for one minute - they would all have stopped for a long lunch and cool down together, imo)  then one of the first things the family would be worried about would be an accident on the building site.

ETA: So there was a digger on a site 75-100 metres away???? Hmmmm... think I would be looking at the digger as an important piece of evidence too....the digger is put into action that very afternoon perhaps during the long siesta for reasons perhaps not immediately understood or made clear.... I assume that the police who arrived on the scene would have been interested in what construction work took place during that afternoon/evening. Who was involved in it and when it happened and for what reason? Was the work consistent with the stage of construction of the villa? Everything that happened during the hours between when Ben was first noticed missing and when the family finally raised the alarm? I wonder if the clothes of the family were forensically examined? Were sniffer dogs ever used?

That video on the link works ok now.

Duncan Wood ‏@duncanwooditv 1h1 hour ago
@Stephan60777598 @DrewCurrie no laid down timescale but expect to finish on site 1 (farmhouse) on Sunday and site 2 perhaps Tuesday



Helen Baxtor ‏@Blamhappy 47m
@duncanwooditv Duncan, obviously the public can't be told who the informant is, but do YOU know? Or is it strictly secret?

Duncan Wood
‏@duncanwooditv
@Blamhappy no, I don't know who it is

Yes, poster it is said that Dino was working on his on site/building a bit further up the lane. In one of the earlier (16th Sept?) Mirror articles Eddie said that he asked Dino to come down to 'put a road in' on the farmhouse site but at mid morning. Christine said she, Ben and Danny didn't arrive until 11:30-12:00. Unless I missed it there was no mention of Dino being at the farmhouse again and Christine didn't mention seeing or talking to any workman when she went up the lane just short of reaching Dino's site looking for Ben. There has been talk of Dino going up and down the lane but it isn't clear whether this was from his site to e.g. the rubble dump site or his site and the farmhouse site. If the latter then it is information I don't see mentioned in older docs and articles by anyone.

As an aside and not that I think it matters but just out of curiosity I looked up weather data for Kos and the highest temp recorded in 1991 was the 13th July (at Kos airport ~15 miles away from the farmhouse) at 35C/95F so the 24th of July must have been lower. Sure it is hot but even where I am it hit a similar temp twice this summer because I was working in it.

@Andrew

Well then....A person just drops by on a moped and tells them it isn't the right spot? Is it just me that is finding it suspicious that a number witnesses are coming forward now after 25 years? Dare I wonder where this third site will be....

So when did this motorcyclist rock up then? There was no word on it from Duncan Wood on the evening update (unless I missed it)

Beginning to sound a bit farcical. Got 'credible' intelligence to search at a specific site then suddenly a motorcyclist roars past and says Alright lads, wrong spot here, you need to dig further up the road.... so they're off to search there next....

Interesting about that informant comment (from that earlier tweet).

It has been pointed out to me that it is not uncommon in certain countries to see young children and even babies being carried at the front of the moped or motor-cycle, sitting between the adults legs with the adults arms holding the handlebars on either side of them and thus protecting them from falling off. While I imagine this would be much safer than a child holding on at the back, it still would not provide much protection in the event of the bike skidding and crashing to the ground or indeed the driver losing control of the vehicle and the riders being thrown to the ground when the vehicle crashes.

This is from your comment at 9.38, Poster. Did you mean Kerry's mother Christine? Kerry wasn't there and the first time she knew that Ben was missing was when she was told at her workplace much later in the day.



The family's account of that afternoon I do not find plausible. Kerry's account in her book does not ring true. She claims she was worried when she discovered Ben missing but then stopped being worried when she assumed Ben had gone off on the back of the moped. This is totally illogical. You would be extremely worried if you thought Ben was on the back of a moped because you would logically know that this is a dangerous position to be in for a toddler.

https://www.facebook.com/calendarnews/

Day 13 update (scroll down a bit)

No 3rd site.

So basically they are extending there time on this (current) 2nd search site. There won't be a 3rd search site even though they were told by this motorcyclist chap. They said they took his claims seriously (but not that seriously if not looking ).

They will start digging underneath at the 2nd site as opposed to just going through the compositions as originally stated.

DI Cousins spoke to both Kerry and Christine in depth last night (but no mention of Eddie).

A couple of tweets:

Malik Walton ‏@Cameramal 43m43 minutes ago
Police searching for missing #BenNeedham extend a search area at the second site after finding compacted material which is of interest

Tom IngallVerified account ‏@TomIngall 53m53 minutes ago
Breaking - @syptweet are extending their operation on #Kos - site 2 requires more investigation. #BenNeedham @BBCSheffield @BBCLookNorth

Duncan Wood ‏@duncanwooditv 17m17 minutes ago
Search for new clues about #BenNeedham disappearance extended. Police reveal they're to dig on 2nd site. Rule out suggested 3rd site

Andrew wrote:So basically they are extending there time on this (current) 2nd search site. There won't be a 3rd search site even though they were told by this motorcyclist chap. They said they took his claims seriously (but not that seriously if not looking ).

Thanks Andrew. That's very interesting. So maybe they're not that bothered about where Dino dumped his rubble.

Yes, sounds like it, Seahorse.

Incidentally, I'm out at my lads footy and won't be back online til this eve. In a rush and didn't log out this morn on laptop by the looks of it (so it shows that I'm here but not, but am briefly now).

Catch up later.